Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby thelotuseffect » Fri May 23, 2014 5:12 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:if you believe rebirth is nothing and not real then thats what you have to look forward to, nothing.......


... Jhana? Nothing is a relief. Not believing in rebirth just results in more rebirth after death.
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby beeblebrox » Fri May 23, 2014 5:23 pm

Hi Lotus Effect,

What I took to be Lyndon's point was that this person would have nothing to look forward to... which seems to include finding the liberation.

:anjali:
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby Mkoll » Fri May 23, 2014 5:42 pm

someguysomeguy wrote:The debate about rebirth is going on for a while.

While we cannot say rebirth is not a part of Buddhism since the entire basis of Buddhist philosophy is Samsara and breaking away from Samsara , there should be some conclusive evidence for it.

I dont like research by Ian stevenson etc because those are based on flimsy grounds (like evidence from children etc)...

If we go into the literature, Buddha says that Rebirth can be seen in the 4th Jhana . Has anyone in this forum seen rebirth or does anyone know of any Buddhist Monk to have seen rebirth?.

No, I've never seen rebirth. I agree with what Lazy Eye said about the lack of sciene surrounding rebirth. I don't think there will ever be a scientific theory backed up by falsifiable evidence about rebirth. It's something you either choose to have faith in or not. Some people call themselves Buddhists and believe in rebirth and some do not. Your call.
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby Sokehi » Fri May 23, 2014 6:23 pm

suwapan wrote:
someguysomeguy wrote:
Has anyone in this forum seen rebirth or does anyone know of any Buddhist Monk to have seen rebirth?.


Has anyone seen the wind?


Very wise :anjali:
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What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby Sokehi » Fri May 23, 2014 6:27 pm

piotr wrote:Hi,

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:Well if it is I who has offended, albeit unwittingly and unintentionally, I apologise.


It's not you. I find it offensive when someone asks legitimate question and instead of proper answer he/she receives preaching about his lack of confidence.


I had the same impression
Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby 2pennyworth » Fri May 23, 2014 9:53 pm

Endless, perpetual rounds of rebirth sounds pretty nightmarish to me, particularly the lower realms of existence. But impermance offers relief. At least the hell realm isn't permanent; for eternity. And the possibility of liberation is even more of a potential relief. (Fire unbound, or fire blown out?) Phew!
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby lyndon taylor » Fri May 23, 2014 10:45 pm

thelotuseffect wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:if you believe rebirth is nothing and not real then that's what you have to look forward to, nothing.......


... Jhana? Nothing is a relief. Not believing in rebirth just results in more rebirth after death.


I'm pretty sure if death is the end of it all, and only nothing afterwards, there is no jhana to experience in nothing, so you still have nothing to look forward to but what you have left in this life, which to me, personally, would be a bit disappointing, not to mention too final!!!

Jhana only exists if there is someone to experience it, if no one is left to experience it, there is no jhana, no parinibbana for that matter if I interpret it properly.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby purple planet » Wed May 28, 2014 7:11 pm

two things i just watched this so i will contribute :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVjuK9u2UAY - and also there is a case of a women who remembers she was ann-frank - this two cases are the best ones i remember

personally i tend to believe it because other stuff about buddhism seem to be true - not sure but i think im 80% convinced there are reincarnations - and im also very sure that there is a big amount of fake claims for reincarnation whether its on purpose or whether its just an illusion in the story tellers mind
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Wed May 28, 2014 7:24 pm

so.... how would you personally tell fake from real?
:namaste:

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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby purple planet » Wed May 28, 2014 8:05 pm

so.... how would you personally tell fake from real?


:embarassed: well i thought about it after writing it (even while) - and it is a false (fake) claim by me

you cant be sure that its a fake claim - and even if there are signs like some kid claiming to be a reincarnation of someone from a family of a rich widow - you cant tell if its lying

i cant remember now but i do remember thinking that some stories must be fake cause lots of details seem too "fake" for me - but honestly even if it a very clear case you can never know if its fake for sure

and im also very sure that there is a big amount of fake claims for reincarnation whether its on purpose or whether its just an illusion in the story tellers mind


so i take it back - for two reasons :

1 . i cant tell if a story is fake for sure

2 . even if i heard of 10-20 stories i think they're fake that still dosnt say that all the other stories i didnt hear are true
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby Kusala » Sat May 31, 2014 6:37 am

someguysomeguy wrote:The debate about rebirth is going on for a while.

While we cannot say rebirth is not a part of Buddhism since the entire basis of Buddhist philosophy is Samsara and breaking away from Samsara , there should be some conclusive evidence for it.

I dont like research by Ian stevenson etc because those are based on flimsy grounds (like evidence from children etc)...

If we go into the literature, Buddha says that Rebirth can be seen in the 4th Jhana .Has anyone in this forum seen rebirth or does anyone know of any Buddhist Monk to have seen rebirth?.


Ajahn Nyanadhammo's Dhamma talk, Buddhism And Psychic Phenomena https://archive.org/details/Ven.Ajahn.Nyanadhammo might be of interest. If you don't have time to listen to the whole talk, skip to 1:09:37.

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Homage to the Buddha
Thus indeed, is that Blessed One: He is the Holy One, fully enlightened, endowed with clear vision and virtuous conduct, sublime, the Knower of the worlds, the incomparable leader of men to be tamed, the teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed.

Homage to the Teachings
The Dhamma of the Blessed One is perfectly expounded; to be seen here and now; not delayed in
time; inviting one to come and see; onward leading (to Nibbana); to be known by the wise, each for himself.
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby manas » Sat May 31, 2014 7:00 am

Of course none of us here as far as I know has conclusive evidence that literal rebirth happens, but it is still a good idea to conduct one's life as though it does. If there's just 'nothing' at the end, well then we lose nothing by being virtuous, as both the virtuous and the non- will just end up as ashes or as compost. But if there is literal rebirth, the un-virtuous one will have to deal with the consequences of his/her misdeeds, and although I can't recall / have not seen them, some of the possible destinations for bad-kamma-doers sound awfully uncomfortable.

:anjali:
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby Mr Man » Sat May 31, 2014 7:51 am

manas wrote:Of course none of us here as far as I know has conclusive evidence that literal rebirth happens, but it is still a good idea to conduct one's life as though it does. If there's just 'nothing' at the end, well then we lose nothing by being virtuous, as both the virtuous and the non- will just end up as ashes or as compost. But if there is literal rebirth, the un-virtuous one will have to deal with the consequences of his/her misdeeds, and although I can't recall / have not seen them, some of the possible destinations for bad-kamma-doers sound awfully uncomfortable.

:anjali:


So virtue is essentially based on fear?
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Sat May 31, 2014 8:13 am

Voltaire once famously remarked, that "It should be no more surprising to be born twice than it was to have been born once."

There's logic in that simple statement, I feel......



:namaste:
:namaste:

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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Sat May 31, 2014 8:15 am

Mr Man wrote:
manas wrote:Of course none of us here as far as I know has conclusive evidence that literal rebirth happens, but it is still a good idea to conduct one's life as though it does. If there's just 'nothing' at the end, well then we lose nothing by being virtuous, as both the virtuous and the non- will just end up as ashes or as compost. But if there is literal rebirth, the un-virtuous one will have to deal with the consequences of his/her misdeeds, and although I can't recall / have not seen them, some of the possible destinations for bad-kamma-doers sound awfully uncomfortable.

:anjali:


So virtue is essentially based on fear?


Not so. Virtue is based on Wisdom and Understanding. It gives us the ability to Choose.
Misdeeds and unskilful behaviour - are based on Fear, which is founded on Ignorance.

:namaste:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby Mr Man » Sat May 31, 2014 8:20 am

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
manas wrote:Of course none of us here as far as I know has conclusive evidence that literal rebirth happens, but it is still a good idea to conduct one's life as though it does. If there's just 'nothing' at the end, well then we lose nothing by being virtuous, as both the virtuous and the non- will just end up as ashes or as compost. But if there is literal rebirth, the un-virtuous one will have to deal with the consequences of his/her misdeeds, and although I can't recall / have not seen them, some of the possible destinations for bad-kamma-doers sound awfully uncomfortable.

:anjali:


So virtue is essentially based on fear?


Not so. Virtue is based on Wisdom and Understanding. It gives us the ability to Choose.
Misdeeds and unskilful behaviour - are based on Fear, which is founded on Ignorance.


Hi TheNoBSBuddhist

The question was in relation to the comment by manas.
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Sat May 31, 2014 8:27 am

I understand. Maybe I answered it out of place.....

:thinking:

:namaste:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby Spiny Norman » Sat May 31, 2014 8:50 am

lyndon taylor wrote:Basically short of true enlightenment, 99.99% of us are going to be reborn or reincarnated, if you believe rebirth is nothing and not real then thats what you have to look forward to, nothing.......


Though if (re)birth leads to ageing and death and the whole mass of suffering, then perhaps oblivion is preferable? :tongue:
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Sat May 31, 2014 8:58 am

I still have so much to learn, see, absorb and understand, I don't have the time to die.


Only once.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby manas » Sat May 31, 2014 9:09 am

Mr Man wrote:
manas wrote:Of course none of us here as far as I know has conclusive evidence that literal rebirth happens, but it is still a good idea to conduct one's life as though it does. If there's just 'nothing' at the end, well then we lose nothing by being virtuous, as both the virtuous and the non- will just end up as ashes or as compost. But if there is literal rebirth, the un-virtuous one will have to deal with the consequences of his/her misdeeds, and although I can't recall / have not seen them, some of the possible destinations for bad-kamma-doers sound awfully uncomfortable.

:anjali:


So virtue is essentially based on fear?


If you think so, MrMan, then by all means do so. But that's not what I was getting at in my post. I did say that being virtuous in this life, even if there's 'nothing' afterwards, is a good thing also. At least I was trying to imply that.

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