Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby Mr Man » Sat May 31, 2014 9:50 am

manas wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
manas wrote:Of course none of us here as far as I know has conclusive evidence that literal rebirth happens, but it is still a good idea to conduct one's life as though it does. If there's just 'nothing' at the end, well then we lose nothing by being virtuous, as both the virtuous and the non- will just end up as ashes or as compost. But if there is literal rebirth, the un-virtuous one will have to deal with the consequences of his/her misdeeds, and although I can't recall / have not seen them, some of the possible destinations for bad-kamma-doers sound awfully uncomfortable.

:anjali:


So virtue is essentially based on fear?


If you think so, MrMan, then by all means do so. But that's not what I was getting at in my post. I did say that being virtuous in this life, even if there's 'nothing' afterwards, is a good thing also. At least I was trying to imply that.

kind regards


Hi Manas
Yes I think my brain got ahead of itself (again) and missed out chunks of what you had written. I had thought you were saying "if there is no afterlife there would be no need for virtue", which you clearly weren't. Sorry.
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby Mr Man » Sat May 31, 2014 9:52 am

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:I understand. Maybe I answered it out of place.....

:thinking:

:namaste:


No problem. :)
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby Mkoll » Sat May 31, 2014 7:29 pm

Mr Man wrote:
manas wrote:Of course none of us here as far as I know has conclusive evidence that literal rebirth happens, but it is still a good idea to conduct one's life as though it does. If there's just 'nothing' at the end, well then we lose nothing by being virtuous, as both the virtuous and the non- will just end up as ashes or as compost. But if there is literal rebirth, the un-virtuous one will have to deal with the consequences of his/her misdeeds, and although I can't recall / have not seen them, some of the possible destinations for bad-kamma-doers sound awfully uncomfortable.

:anjali:


So virtue is essentially based on fear?

I wouldn't say virtue is "essentially" based on fear but certain kinds of fear are definitely one aspect of it, namely the guardians of the world: ottappa (fear of wrongdoing and its consequences) and hiri (moral fear, fear of doing what is shameful). It's prudent fear rather than panicky fear, e.g. navigating along a steep mountain ridge rather than running away from a hungry tiger.

Here is some sutta support (my emphasis added in the notes):

Thus have I heard. Once the Venerable Mahaa-Kassapa and the Venerable Saariputta were staying near Benares, at Isipatana in the Deer Park. [Saariputta said:] "It is said, friend Kassapa, that without ardor and without taking care[1] one is unable to gain enlightenment, unable to gain Nibbaana, unable to gain relief from bondage,[2] but that with ardor, with taking care, enlightenment... can be gained. [How is this?]"

"When, friend, a monk thinks: 'Evil[3] and unskilled[4] states that have not arisen would, if they were to arise, be to my detriment,' and he does not arouse ardor; when he thinks: 'Evil and unskilled states that have arisen will, if they are not abandoned, be to my detriment,' and he does not arouse ardor; when he thinks: 'Skilled states that have not arisen, if they do not arise, this will be to my detriment,' and he does not arouse ardor; when he thinks: 'Skilled states that have arisen, if they should cease, this will be to my detriment,' and he does not arouse ardor — this, friend, is being without ardor."

[The same is repeated for 'without taking care']

"Thus it is friend, that without ardor, without taking care, one is unable to gain enlightenment, unable to gain Nibbaana, unable to gain relief from bondage. And how, friend, is one ardent? When a monk thinks: 'Evil and unskilled states...' ... 'Skilled states...' [As before but after each thought: 'and he arouses ardor'] — this, friend, is arousing ardor. [The same repeated with: 'taking care']. Thus it is, friend, that by arousing ardor and taking care one is able to gain enlightenment, to gain Nibbaana, to gain relief from bondage."
Notes

1.
Anottaapii: "without moral dread (ottappa)." Ottappa is fear of wrongdoing (and its consequences). It is usually coupled with hiri "moral shame," i.e., fear of doing what one would be ashamed of. These two are known as the "guardians of the world" (Loka-paalaa), and together may be regarded as the objective and subjective aspects of what Christians call conscience. Here, anaataapii ["without ardor"] and anottaapii are linked together by rhyme. If this translation were more concerned with literary effect than with meaning, this could be to a certain extent imitated by a rendering such as "without fire and without care."
2.
Yogakkhema: Yoga (etymologically related to English yoke) is sometimes used in Buddhism with positive connotations of religious discipline, etc., but more usually has the negative sense as here. Specifically the "yokes" are synonymous with the cankers (aasavaa, cf. SN 12.23 n.2).
3.
Paapakaa: "(objectively) evil"
4.
Akusalaa: lit. "unskilled," the negated form of kusala "skillful" or "wholesome," i.e., productive of favorable karmic results. Such states are accompanied by the "wholesome roots" of non-greed (alobha), non-hate (adosa) and sometimes also non-delusion (amoha).

-SN 16.2


"'Furthermore, the monk is virtuous. He dwells restrained in accordance with the Patimokkha, consummate in his behavior & sphere of activity. He trains himself, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest faults. This is the second prerequisite for the development of the wings to self-awakening.

-AN 9.1
Peace,
James
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby rowboat » Sat May 31, 2014 7:49 pm

manas wrote:Of course none of us here as far as I know has conclusive evidence that literal rebirth happens, but it is still a good idea to conduct one's life as though it does.


I do personally have irrevocable and certain evidence of rebirth. Since infancy I have remembered my most recent human life, or rather, how I died in that life; as a young boy of three or four, crushed beneath the right front wheel of a pea-soup green car. I also clearly remember the process of dying, the shocking, unspeakable pain of it.

My immediately previous life in the catumaharajika deva loka; I remember this very well. I have enough bright points of enduring memory such that I can gaze at the constellation, so to speak. I remember this all quite clearly. My time there was cut short. I left there willingly with another who promised to help me.

I remember being presented to (presumably) Yama. Being in chains. I remember floating alone for such a long time in a very large, dark iron vat in some caustic or very hot fluid. From time to time I would call out and sometimes a voice would answer. Eventually I would sink to the bottom of this giant vat and be sucked through a "drain" only to reappear secured - perhaps in chains - with two or three beings around me. They would proceed to pour some molten metal down my throat until I passed away from this place, only to return to the vat. This process cycled many times it seems.

I remember a previous life where I was a painter of religious art from Bhutan, attached to a monastery in Tibet. I was sent to the city of Lhasa and, to allay my fears of the supernatural, I was given an amulet which I ended up clutching so tightly on my journey that I wounded my hand. I met a woman, a singer, in a public square. We fell in love. We died together soon afterwards. (I have many details to share with a Tibetologist. Very likely chance for independent verification.)

I remember a life - I believe it was in Burma. I was happily married into my later years, until my wife passed away. I ordained afterwards, and I died as a monk while in meditation on a small hill beneath a crescent moon.

I've intentionally left out the most interesting previous life that I can remember. It is from the time of the Buddha. If any bhikkhu would like to know more about this I am happy to be contacted via PM. (I have a number of details which perhaps can be independently confirmed.)

I've been economical with this information today. It's because I have to go out soon for a four or five hour bicycle ride, and I am in a bit of a rush. (I skipped riding the previous two days because My Poor Legs.) I may add more when I return home.

:anjali:
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby Mkoll » Sat May 31, 2014 7:55 pm

rowboat wrote:I've intentionally left out the most interesting previous life that I can remember. It is from the time of the Buddha. If any bhikkhu would like to know more about this I am happy to be contacted via PM. (I have a number of details which perhaps can be independently confirmed.)
I'm curious, why don't you want to tell us laypeople?
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby someguysomeguy » Sat May 31, 2014 8:09 pm

rowboat wrote:
manas wrote:Of course none of us here as far as I know has conclusive evidence that literal rebirth happens, but it is still a good idea to conduct one's life as though it does.


I do personally have irrevocable and certain evidence of rebirth. Since infancy I have remembered my most recent human life, or rather, how I died in that life; as a young boy of three or four, crushed beneath the right front wheel of a pea-soup green car. I also clearly remember the process of dying, the shocking, unspeakable pain of it.

My immediately previous life in the catumaharajika deva loka; I remember this very well. I have enough bright points of enduring memory such that I can gaze at the constellation, so to speak. I remember this all quite clearly. My time there was cut short. I left there willingly with another who promised to help me.

I remember being presented to (presumably) Yama. Being in chains. I remember floating alone for such a long time in a very large, dark iron vat in some caustic or very hot fluid. From time to time I would call out and sometimes a voice would answer. Eventually I would sink to the bottom of this giant vat and be sucked through a "drain" only to reappear secured - perhaps in chains - with two or three beings around me. They would proceed to pour some molten metal down my throat until I passed away from this place, only to return to the vat. This process cycled many times it seems.

I remember a previous life where I was a painter of religious art from Bhutan, attached to a monastery in Tibet. I was sent to the city of Lhasa and, to allay my fears of the supernatural, I was given an amulet which I ended up clutching so tightly on my journey that I wounded my hand. I met a woman, a singer, in a public square. We fell in love. We died together soon afterwards. (I have many details to share with a Tibetologist. Very likely chance for independent verification.)

I remember a life - I believe it was in Burma. I was happily married into my later years, until my wife passed away. I ordained afterwards, and I died as a monk while in meditation on a small hill beneath a crescent moon.

I've intentionally left out the most interesting previous life that I can remember. It is from the time of the Buddha. If any bhikkhu would like to know more about this I am happy to be contacted via PM. (I have a number of details which perhaps can be independently confirmed.)

I've been economical with this information today. It's because I have to go out soon for a four or five hour bicycle ride, and I am in a bit of a rush. (I skipped riding the previous two days because My Poor Legs.) I may add more when I return home.

:anjali:


You remember previous lives by Meditation technique or naturally?.
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby whynotme » Sun Jun 01, 2014 1:56 am

@rowboat,

So had you meet the Buddha in that life?
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby rowboat » Sun Jun 01, 2014 4:33 am

someguysomeguy:
You remember previous lives by Meditation technique or naturally?.


I'm not sure why I remember. I've had strong enduring samadhi in the past. But as I was saying earlier, I've always remembered my most recent previous human life. Since before I could walk. In fact I even remember the day I was born. I was circumcised, and the doctor who delivered me, a Dr. Maharaj, cut me a little recklessly so that I remember the searing pain. And I have a small scar to remind me.

Mkoll: I'm curious, why don't you want to tell us laypeople?


Two reasons. I have to obey my heart in this matter. And because it's deeply personal.
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby someguysomeguy » Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:08 am

rowboat wrote:
someguysomeguy:
You remember previous lives by Meditation technique or naturally?.


I'm not sure why I remember. I've had strong enduring samadhi in the past. But as I was saying earlier, I've always remembered my most recent previous human life. Since before I could walk. In fact I even remember the day I was born. I was circumcised, and the doctor who delivered me, a Dr. Maharaj, cut me a little recklessly so that I remember the searing pain. And I have a small scar to remind me.

Mkoll: I'm curious, why don't you want to tell us laypeople?


Two reasons. I have to obey my heart in this matter. And because it's deeply personal.


As a child I used to get visions of a person attacking me with fire. My parents even consulted me to a psychiatrist who diagnosed me as nothing wrong . Even today when I think I get visions of being in Hot fire.

Dont know does this signify something?.
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby Mr Man » Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:07 am

rowboat wrote:
manas wrote:Of course none of us here as far as I know has conclusive evidence that literal rebirth happens, but it is still a good idea to conduct one's life as though it does.


I do personally have irrevocable and certain evidence of rebirth. Since infancy I have remembered my most recent human life, or rather, how I died in that life; as a young boy of three or four, crushed beneath the right front wheel of a pea-soup green car. I also clearly remember the process of dying, the shocking, unspeakable pain of it.

My immediately previous life in the catumaharajika deva loka; I remember this very well. I have enough bright points of enduring memory such that I can gaze at the constellation, so to speak. I remember this all quite clearly. My time there was cut short. I left there willingly with another who promised to help me.

I remember being presented to (presumably) Yama. Being in chains. I remember floating alone for such a long time in a very large, dark iron vat in some caustic or very hot fluid. From time to time I would call out and sometimes a voice would answer. Eventually I would sink to the bottom of this giant vat and be sucked through a "drain" only to reappear secured - perhaps in chains - with two or three beings around me. They would proceed to pour some molten metal down my throat until I passed away from this place, only to return to the vat. This process cycled many times it seems.

I remember a previous life where I was a painter of religious art from Bhutan, attached to a monastery in Tibet. I was sent to the city of Lhasa and, to allay my fears of the supernatural, I was given an amulet which I ended up clutching so tightly on my journey that I wounded my hand. I met a woman, a singer, in a public square. We fell in love. We died together soon afterwards. (I have many details to share with a Tibetologist. Very likely chance for independent verification.)

I remember a life - I believe it was in Burma. I was happily married into my later years, until my wife passed away. I ordained afterwards, and I died as a monk while in meditation on a small hill beneath a crescent moon.

I've intentionally left out the most interesting previous life that I can remember. It is from the time of the Buddha. If any bhikkhu would like to know more about this I am happy to be contacted via PM. (I have a number of details which perhaps can be independently confirmed.)

I've been economical with this information today. It's because I have to go out soon for a four or five hour bicycle ride, and I am in a bit of a rush. (I skipped riding the previous two days because My Poor Legs.) I may add more when I return home.

:anjali:


What you have presented here is certainly not irrevocable and certain evidence of rebirth.

I have also had an experience of the moment of my birth and a an experience of a past life death with an accompanying physical symptom. I also had an experience which I perceived as a ghost which happened following on from making some sceptical comments about ghost experiences. I don't take these experiences (which are now just memories) as being significant or accurate.
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby rowboat » Sun Jun 01, 2014 1:47 pm

Mr Man: What you have presented here is certainly not irrevocable and certain evidence of rebirth.


You are wrong. It is. For me, it is. And that is all that matters.

:anjali:
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Sun Jun 01, 2014 1:59 pm

rowboat wrote:
Mr Man: What you have presented here is certainly not irrevocable and certain evidence of rebirth.


You are wrong. It is. For me, it is. And that is all that matters.

:anjali:


Prefacing your statement with "you are wrong" may be seen by some as argumentative.

That it is for you, is sufficient testimony to confirm that indeed, it IS all that matters.

Even 'truth' is pliable, due to Perception.
we all see the same diamond, yet the light emanates differently for each person, depending upon which facet we are appreciating....

I am happy for you that your experiences resonate and are meaningful to you.

:namaste:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby someguysomeguy » Sun Jun 01, 2014 2:03 pm

rowboat wrote:
Mr Man: What you have presented here is certainly not irrevocable and certain evidence of rebirth.


You are wrong. It is. For me, it is. And that is all that matters.

:anjali:


Exactly true. If it matters to you then it is all that matters.
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby Mr Man » Sun Jun 01, 2014 3:36 pm

rowboat wrote:
Mr Man: What you have presented here is certainly not irrevocable and certain evidence of rebirth.


You are wrong. It is. For me, it is. And that is all that matters.

:anjali:


Where am I wrong?
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Sun Jun 01, 2014 3:50 pm

rowboat wrote:
someguysomeguy:
You remember previous lives by Meditation technique or naturally?.


I'm not sure why I remember. I've had strong enduring samadhi in the past. But as I was saying earlier, I've always remembered my most recent previous human life. Since before I could walk. In fact I even remember the day I was born. I was circumcised, and the doctor who delivered me, a Dr. Maharaj, cut me a little recklessly so that I remember the searing pain. And I have a small scar to remind me.


In that life, were you born to Jewish parents, then? :)
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby rowboat » Sun Jun 01, 2014 4:39 pm

NoBSBuddhist: In that life, were you born to Jewish parents, then? :)


Your silly "throwaway" comment has pointed out to me that I could have worded things better. To clarify, I was speaking about this present life; "Since before I could walk... I remember the day I was born..."

Mr Man: Where am I wrong?


You imply that there is only one valid meaning of the word 'evidence.'
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby SamKR » Sun Jun 01, 2014 4:49 pm

Mr Man wrote:
rowboat wrote:
Mr Man: What you have presented here is certainly not irrevocable and certain evidence of rebirth.


You are wrong. It is. For me, it is. And that is all that matters.

:anjali:


Where am I wrong?

For rowboat it is irrevocable and certain.
I do personally have irrevocable and certain evidence of rebirth.

And let's appreciate that he shared his experiences and answered the question in the OP:
... Has anyone in this forum seen rebirth or does anyone know of any Buddhist Monk to have seen rebirth?

Thank you, rowboat.
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Sun Jun 01, 2014 4:52 pm

rowboat wrote:
NoBSBuddhist: In that life, were you born to Jewish parents, then?


Your silly "throwaway" comment has pointed out to me that I could have worded things better. To clarify, I was speaking about this present life; "Since before I could walk... I remember the day I was born...


Actually, it was not intended to be a 'throwaway' comment. The question was quite serious.
I merely wondered if you had been born to a Jewish family.
Or else, why would you have been circumcised?
There is no religious basis, if you are not Jewish; and to be circumcised on the day of your birth is extraordinarily irregular, and not practised unless it is a medical emergency, which would not be perceived immediately...

That was all....
It was a serious question.

You are discussing memory of an event long-gone which others have never had the good fortune or privilege of experiencing, or remembering.
Therefore it is understandable that others are curious.
I wasn't being flippant, disrespectful, nor 'throwing away' a remark....
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby rowboat » Sun Jun 01, 2014 5:10 pm

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:
rowboat wrote:
NoBSBuddhist: In that life, were you born to Jewish parents, then? :)


Your silly "throwaway" comment has pointed out to me that I could have worded things better. To clarify, I was speaking about this present life; "Since before I could walk... I remember the day I was born...


Actually, it was not intended to be a 'throwaway' comment. The question was quite serious.
I merely wondered if you had been born to a Jewish family.
Or else, why would you have been circumcised?
There is no religious basis, if you are not Jewish; and to be circumcised on the day of your birth is extraordinarily irregular, and not practised unless it is a medical emergency, which would not be perceived immediately...



So you were quite seriously merely wondering...

I assumed - reasonably, in my opinion - that you chose to use that Grinning-Emoticon to show that you were trying to be funny. You make a lot of jokes.

Actually, neonatal circumcision is quite common. Let's not derail this thread any further.

SamKR: For rowboat it is irrevocable and certain.

And let's appreciate that he shared his experiences and answered the question in the OP:

Thank you, rowboat.


Thank-you, SamKR. I appreciate your thoughtfulness and your close reading.

:anjali:
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby Crazy cloud » Sun Jun 01, 2014 5:27 pm

Thanks a lot," rowboat" - highly inspiring, I share a pic in gratitude - from my place of last rebirth (yes, have some memories to) :)

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your name Mori means forest like the infinite fresh green distances of your blindness
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