Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 3188
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu May 29, 2014 8:13 am

If we have no memory of being born, then why is it included in descriptions of dukkha?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... ukkha.html
"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."
Peter Gabriel lyric

User avatar
TheNoBSBuddhist
Posts: 1614
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:06 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001
Location: Loch Lomond, via the High AND Low road....

Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Thu May 29, 2014 8:15 am

Even if we have no recollection of it, it is the moment we begin our journey towards old age, sickness and death.

Simply because you cannot remember it, it doesn't mean it is not dhukka.... can you remember every single event in your life since, that would be construed as such?
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 1118
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006

Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby Sam Vara » Thu May 29, 2014 8:40 am

Spiny Norman wrote:If we have no memory of being born, then why is it included in descriptions of dukkha?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... ukkha.html


I think it is because, regardless of our perception of it, birth is objectively Dukkha. The last of the ATI selections in the link is the key here: SN 38.14, which points out that Dukkha denotes more than just physical and mental painful feeling.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn38/sn38.014.than.html

My own birth might not be hurting me now, but is subject to the impermanence or "declinability" of viparinama-dukkhata, and is sankhara dukkhata because it is a conditioned phenomenon.

User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 4154
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006
Location: California, USA

Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby Mkoll » Thu May 29, 2014 8:43 am

Spiny Norman wrote:If we have no memory of being born, then why is it included in descriptions of dukkha?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... ukkha.html


Think of the mother. :heart:
Peace,
James

User avatar
cooran
Posts: 7801
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby cooran » Thu May 29, 2014 9:12 am

Hello all,

An article by Sayadaw U Silanandabhivamsa on Kamma, Rebirth and Suffering
http://www.tbsa.org/kamma.html

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 14812
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu May 29, 2014 9:33 am

Greetings Spiny,

This may or may not be of interest, in connection to your query...

Essential points of the Buddhist teachings - Ven. Ajahn Buddhadasa
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha193.htm

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)

User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 3188
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu May 29, 2014 9:57 am

Mkoll wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:If we have no memory of being born, then why is it included in descriptions of dukkha?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... ukkha.html


Think of the mother. :heart:


My birth might well have been a source of dukkha for my mother (!) but I wasn't aware of it at the time.
"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."
Peter Gabriel lyric

User avatar
acinteyyo
Posts: 1055
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:48 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: Neuburg/Donau, Germany

Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby acinteyyo » Thu May 29, 2014 9:58 am

Spiny Norman wrote:If we have no memory of being born, then why is it included in descriptions of dukkha?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... ukkha.html


I wonder why you assume that in order for a phenomena to be dukkha you have to be able to remember it?

At any given moment where there is ignorance there arises dukkha, whether you can remember that particular moment or not doesn't make any difference.
The dukkhaness of the phenomena persists as long as there is the cause for the arising of dukkha.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Api cāhaṃ, āvuso, imasmiṃyeva byāmamatte kaḷevare, sasaññimhi samanake lokañca paññāpemi lokasamudayañca lokanirodhañca lokanirodhagāminiñca paṭipadan. (AN4.45)

:anjali:

User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 3188
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu May 29, 2014 10:02 am

Sam Vara wrote:My own birth might not be hurting me now, but is subject to the impermanence or "declinability" of viparinama-dukkhata, and is sankhara dukkhata because it is a conditioned phenomenon.


Don't all three types of dukkha arise in dependence on birth? Is that why birth itself is classed as dukkha?
"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."
Peter Gabriel lyric

User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 3188
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu May 29, 2014 10:02 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Spiny,

This may or may not be of interest, in connection to your query...

Essential points of the Buddhist teachings - Ven. Ajahn Buddhadasa
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha193.htm

Metta,
Retro. :)


Thanks Retro but I couldn't see anything directly relating to the OP question.
"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."
Peter Gabriel lyric

vinasp
Posts: 1316
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby vinasp » Thu May 29, 2014 10:14 am

Hi everyone,

From the talk by Ven. Ajahn Buddhadasa:

"Therefore, there being no one born here, there is no one who dies and is reborn."

Thanks Retro - that's a good one!

Regards, Vincent.

User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 3188
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu May 29, 2014 10:31 am

vinasp wrote: From the talk by Ven. Ajahn Buddhadasa:
"Therefore, there being no one born here, there is no one who dies and is reborn."


I don't see how this sheds any light on the OP question.
"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."
Peter Gabriel lyric

User avatar
TheNoBSBuddhist
Posts: 1614
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:06 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001
Location: Loch Lomond, via the High AND Low road....

Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Thu May 29, 2014 10:34 am

It doesn't.

I think, if I may be so bold, my response, and that of acinteyyo, are probably closer to responding to it directly.

:namaste:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....

SarathW
Posts: 2737
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006

Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby SarathW » Thu May 29, 2014 10:48 am

Having not fully appreciated the Buddha's teaching regarding Dukkha, we have misunderstood it. We have taken it to mean that birth, old age, and so on are themselves Dukkha, but in fact those are just its characteristic vehicles. The Buddha summarized his teachings as, "Sankhittena panucupadanakkhandadukkha" which translates as, "In short, Dukkha is the five clung to "khandas" (the five 'groups' or 'aggregates' of existence: form, feeling, perception, mental formations, and consciousness). This means that anything which clings or is clung to as "I" or "mine" is Dukkha. Anything which has no clinging to "I" and "mine" has no Dukkha. Therefore, birth, old age, sickness, death or whatever, if they are not clung to as "I" or "mine" has no Dukkha. Therefore, birth, old age, sickness, death and whatever, if they are not clung to as "I" or "mine" cannot be Dukkha. Only when they are clung to as "I" or "mine" are they Dukkha. The body and mind are the same. Its not that Dukkha is inherent in body and mind. It is only when there is clinging to "I" and "mine" that they are Dukkha. With the pure and undefiled mind, that of the arahant (one freed from all greed, aversion and delusion), there is no Dukkha at all.

http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha193.htm

User avatar
seeker242
Posts: 296
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:01 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006

Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby seeker242 » Thu May 29, 2014 11:19 am

Seems to me that because birth = death.

vinasp
Posts: 1316
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby vinasp » Thu May 29, 2014 11:44 am

Hi Spiny,

For the ordinary man "birth" is understood to mean rebirth, which he fears.

For the noble disciple "birth" is the birth or origination of self-view (atta-ditthi).

Regards, Vincent.

User avatar
TheNoBSBuddhist
Posts: 1614
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:06 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001
Location: Loch Lomond, via the High AND Low road....

Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Thu May 29, 2014 11:48 am

that still doesn't really answer the question.... does it?

Or maybe it does.... :shrug:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....

User avatar
Jetavan
Posts: 92
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:45 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby Jetavan » Thu May 29, 2014 12:00 pm

SarathW wrote:With the pure and undefiled mind, that of the arahant (one freed from all greed, aversion and delusion), there is no Dukkha at all.

Hmmm...if there is "no dukkha at all" after realization of arahanthood, then why does nibbana without remainder occur?

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 1118
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006

Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby Sam Vara » Thu May 29, 2014 12:22 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
Sam Vara wrote:My own birth might not be hurting me now, but is subject to the impermanence or "declinability" of viparinama-dukkhata, and is sankhara dukkhata because it is a conditioned phenomenon.


Don't all three types of dukkha arise in dependence on birth? Is that why birth itself is classed as dukkha?


I'm not sure of what the suttas say as to whether dukkha can arise without there being some form of birth preceding it as a condition. It certainly precedes it in most formulations of Dependent Origination. But in itself, birth is merely a process in a causal chain, so is unsatisfactory due to the fact that it passes away (viparinama) and is conditioned by other factors beyond my control (sankhara-).

One might pose the same question regarding death: why is it dukkha, given that I'm not experiencing it now? Depending on circumstances, one might ask the same of any other the things which are identified as being dukkha.

vinasp
Posts: 1316
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby vinasp » Thu May 29, 2014 12:48 pm

Hi everyone,

OK , I will try again.

First you are born (physical birth) , then about five years later self starts to be born,

after another ten years self is fully born. With the birth of self, death and suffering are born.

With the elimination of self, death and suffering are eliminated.

Regards, Vincent.


Return to “General Theravāda discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests