Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Post Reply
walkart
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:13 pm

Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Post by walkart »

Because birth is a conditioned selfless phenomena, all conditioned selfless phenomena are impermanent, all what is impermanent is dukkha.
vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Post by vinasp »

Hi Spiny, everyone,

CORRECTION.

The passage translated by Nanananda which I identified as being from SN 12.38 is actually
from SN 12.40.

My apologies for the error, Vincent.
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 1546
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm
Location: United States

Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Post by Virgo »

From the Visuddhimagga:

(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... on2011.pdf):

Birth itself is suffering:
  • XVI
    37.When this being is born in the mother’s womb, he is not born inside a blue or
    red or white lotus, etc., but on the contrary, like a worm in rotting fish, rotting dough,
    cesspools, etc., he is born in the belly in a position that is below the receptacle for
    undigested food (stomach), above the receptacle for digested food (rectum)
    , between
    the belly-lining and the backbone, which is very cramped, quite dark, pervaded by
    very fetid draughts redolent of various smells of ordure, and exception-ally
    loathsome.11 And on being reborn there, for ten months he undergoes excessive
    suffering, being cooked like a pudding in a bag by the heat produced in the mother’s
    womb, and steamed like a dumpling of dough, with no bending, stretching, and so
    on. So this, firstly, is the suffering rooted in the descent into the womb.
and

Before 37 there is 36:

Birth is the beginning of, and leads to much suffering:
  • 36. Herein, this birth is suffering because it is the basis for the suffering in the
    states of loss as made evident by the Blessed One by means of a simile in the
    Bálapaóðita Sutta (M III 165f.), etc., and for the suffering that arises in the happy
    destinies in the human world and is classed as “rooted in the descent into the
    womb,” and so on. [500]
Of course, the whole section on birth is very useful and should be read by the wise.
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10167
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Post by Spiny Norman »

I recall that at one time a therapy called "rebirthing" was quite popular - I think the idea was to overcome the suppressed or forgotten trauma of one's original birth or something. I never did it so I don't know if it works. ;)
Buddha save me from new-agers!
User avatar
TheNoBSBuddhist
Posts: 1614
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:06 pm
Location: Loch Lomond, via the High AND Low road....

Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

Billy Conolly (A well-known Glaswegian comedian) went through such a process on his travel round the globe.... I don't think he found it very...effective. It caused much mirth, and he found it difficult to take seriously, although he tried.

He is also fond of stripping completely naked - as the day he was born - in remote, almost-inaccessible places, and running around like a wild banshee whooping at the top of his lungs.

A type of 'reverting to early childhood' I guess.....
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the last section of SN 12.40

"But, bhikkhus, when one does not intend, and one does not plan, and one does not have a tendency towards anything, no basis exists for the maintenance of consciousness.
When there is no basis, there is no support for the establishing of consciousness. When consciousness is unestablished and does not come to growth, there is no inclination. When there is no inclination, there is no coming and going.
When there is no coming and going, there is no passing away and being reborn.
When there is no passing away and being reborn, future birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering. 117"

[BB, CDB, page 578, part of SN 12.40 - Volition (3).]

When there is no passing away and being reborn - of what? Of a self.

When there is no moment-by-moment passing away and being reborn of a self, then there is no longer a self.

No self that was born at the start of this life. No self that will die at the end of this life.

No previous lives of that self. No future lives of that self.

So no future birth, aging-and-death of that self.

Regards, Vincent.
vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

A long thread, perhaps hard to follow for some. What have we learnt?

I think that I see a basic principle of the teachings more clearly than before, it is this:

Present craving results in future suffering. To end the future suffering one must end present craving.

The first noble truth, the truth of suffering, is always about future suffering.

The second truth, the truth of the origination of suffering, speaks of "this craving which results in renewed existence."

Self existence is suffering, So renewed self existence is renewed suffering.

Every noble disciple clearly sees this process, and therefore sees "rebirth" occurring continuously. Stopping it is enlightenment.

Regards, Vincent.
User avatar
Kusala
Posts: 1148
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:02 am

Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Post by Kusala »

Spiny Norman wrote:If we have no memory of being born, then why is it included in descriptions of dukkha?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... ukkha.html
...because birth ultimately ends in death.

Image
"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
User avatar
TheNoBSBuddhist
Posts: 1614
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:06 pm
Location: Loch Lomond, via the High AND Low road....

Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

(Is that Freddie Mercury, in the foreground of the adult phase....? :jawdrop: )

:tongue:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10167
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Post by Spiny Norman »

vinasp wrote: For the ordinary man "birth" is understood to mean rebirth, which he fears.
For the noble disciple "birth" is the birth or origination of self-view (atta-ditthi).
I still don't think you've presented a coherent argument for this interpretation. In the suttas self-view comes across as a deep-seated underlying tendency, not something which is continually "reborn".
I think you could say that craving is continually "reborn", though it's simpler to say that it continually re-occurs. Also it feels very clumsy to talk about craving "ageing" and "dying", particularly because the aim of practice is for craving to age and die!
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10167
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Post by Spiny Norman »

vinasp wrote: Every noble disciple clearly sees this process, and therefore sees "rebirth" occurring continuously. Stopping it is enlightenment.
Have a look at the section on mundane and noble Right View in MN117. The difference here is in the noble disciple's strength of discernment - there is nothing about the noble disciple rejecting mundane Right View or deciding to view rebirth as a metaphor. What's being described here is a progression from mundane to noble right view, they're not mutually exclusive.

"And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.

"And what is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, the path factor of right view[1] in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Post by daverupa »

It's probably a late section; the format of the two views mimics a distinction in a later Upanisad which depicts two post-death routes for folk (the northern & southern routes per the Prashna Upanisad: one uses merit and leads to the land of the ancestors & rebirth, the other seeks the Soul and immortality).

In the Sutta, however, the householder lifestyle of merit & rebirth is contrasted, not with atta, but anatta and sammaditthi and so forth - a clear massage of a prevailing cultural dichotomy according to Buddhist values.

Alongside other scholars already considering this passage late for various reasons, but especially due to the Prashna U., I'm of a mind to consider that it's a later bit of pedagogical reflection, and worth considering carefully - though, not worth absorbing, since most/all modern cultures don't have this dichotomy as an inherent feature (and, therefore, making a teaching which uses that dichotomy require contextual information not automatically present for us these days).
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
chownah
Posts: 9336
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Post by chownah »

Spiny Norman,
Can you make an analysis of rebirth taken as a quality as a factor for awakening?
chownah
vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Post by vinasp »

Hi Spiny,

vinasp wrote:
"For the ordinary man "birth" is understood to mean rebirth, which he fears.
For the noble disciple "birth" is the birth or origination of self-view (atta-ditthi)."

Spiny:-"I still don't think you've presented a coherent argument for this interpretation...."

You are correct. I changed my understanding as the thread progressed and so changed my arguments accordingly. What I would say now is:

"For the ordinary man "birth" is understood to mean literal rebirth, which he fears."

And as for this statement:
"For the noble disciple "birth" is the birth or origination of self-view (atta-ditthi)."

In the original context I was using "birth" in a figurative way to mean the emergence of self-view. But for an adult bhikkhu that would also be in the past and therefore not included in the suffering meant by the first truth.

So, while self-view does emerge, and it's emerging can be called "birth", I do not now think that the noble disciple sees that as part of the suffering meant by the first truth.

Spiny:-"In the suttas self-view comes across as a deep-seated underlying tendency, not something which is continually "reborn"......"

I think you are confusing my earlier and later explanations. I may be partly at fault in this - of course.

There is at least one sutta which says that all views are a constructive activity (sankhara).

My understanding is that "self" is continuously re-created, that is why it persists, and why it seems to be stable.

Regards, Vincent.
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Post by daverupa »

I am still wondering about this comment and possible discussion based thereon.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Post Reply