Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

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chownah
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Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby chownah » Sat May 31, 2014 4:33 pm

Next you will probably think you deserve half of the prize money!
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Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Sat May 31, 2014 4:45 pm

I'm agreeable to sharing.....

:broke:

:namaste:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, may be why....

vinasp
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Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby vinasp » Sat May 31, 2014 9:21 pm

Hi everyone,

Part of SN 55.40 - Nandiya

".... then Nandiya the Sakyan approached the Blessed One ....."
"Venerable sir, when the four factors of stream-entry are completely and totally nonexistent in a noble disciple, would that noble disciple be one who dwells negligently?"
"Nandiya, I say that one in whom the four factors of stream-entry are completely and totally absent is 'an outsider, one who stands in the faction of worldlings.'358 ...................." [BB CDB page 1826-7]

Note 358. As at SN 48.18

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby Denisa » Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:49 am


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Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:21 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
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Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:28 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
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Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby Mkoll » Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:56 am

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:31 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
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Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:32 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby vinasp » Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:53 am

Hi everyone,

"He understands thus: 'There is no obsession unabandoned in myself that might so obsess my mind that I cannot know and see things as they actually are.
My mind is well disposed for awakening to the truths.'494
This is the first knowledge attained by him that is noble, supramundane, not shared by ordinary people." [BB MLD page 421, part of MN 48.8]

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby befriend » Sun Jun 01, 2014 2:58 pm

when you realize nibbana you aren't born into any realm you have conquered birth and death, broken the bonds of cyclical existence. birth is suffering because if your born you obviously haven't gone to the other shore which is the highest peace where there is no suffering. it doesn't have anything to do with some negative sensations you experienced while being born.
nothing can destroy a man who has lived a pure life

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Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby vinasp » Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:29 pm

Hi everyone,

Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

If we are talking about the four noble truths then birth, old-age and death, are not always included.

There are two lesser known variations on the four noble truths.

In one of these [SN 56.13] the first truth, the truth of suffering, is said to be: "the five aggregates subject to clinging."

And in the other [SN 56.14] the truth of suffering is:"the six internal sense bases."

In each case the other three truths are identical to the standard version.

Which leads to the interesting question: How can "this craving" in the second truth be the "origin of suffering", when that would mean the origin of the six-bases?

Regards, Vincent.

vinasp
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Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby vinasp » Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:14 pm

Hi everyone,

"But, on the other hand, monks, if one does not will, nor entertain thought-constructions, nor has proclivities, then this does not become an object for the persistence of the consciousness.
The object not being there, there is no station of consciousness: consciousness not being stationed and not having grown, there is no bending: bending not being, there is no coming or going: there being no coming or going, there is no decease or birth: there being no decease or birth, there is no future birth, old age and death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow, and despair. Such is the cessation of this mass of ill."

Nanananda, Concept and Reality, BPS 1986, page 90.- [cited as K.S. II. 46-47]

This is SN 12.38 - Will, see also SN 12.39 and SN 12.40

This is a difficult passage that will require extensive analysis which is beyond the scope of this thread.

But one thing seems clear, there is a "decease and birth" which ceases in the present, that is the reason why there is no "future birth, old-age and death .."

The terms "decease and birth" are not here used in a literal sense.

One possibility is that, there being no self, there is no self that was born and no self that will die, even now. So there can be no future birth, old-age and death, of that self.

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby ihrjordan » Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:43 am

"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"

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Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby Mkoll » Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:54 am

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby Spiny Norman » Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:59 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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Spiny Norman
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Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby Spiny Norman » Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:07 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

vinasp
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Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby vinasp » Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:50 am

Hi Spiny,

Vincent:-"Which leads to the interesting question: How can "this craving" in the second truth be the "origin of suffering", when that would mean the origin of the six-bases?"

Spiny:-"I think it ties in well with the traditional view of dukkha and DO - craving for becoming ( in the 3 realms ) is an aspect of tanha, so craving for rebirth would lead to name+form and therefore the 6 bases."

Yes. Craving for becoming would lead to name+form and therefore the six bases ARISING IN THE FUTURE.

So present craving is the cause of future suffering (next life).

Spiny:"What's your alternative explanation?"

That we are creating the six-bases continuously, and that if we stop doing it then that is enlightenment.

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby beeblebrox » Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:35 pm


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Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:38 pm

My two children had distinctly different first-time experiences.
Whether that accounts for how diverse their temperaments are, is something infinitely debatable.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, may be why....


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