Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

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Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

Postby SarathW » Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:17 am

Why sadness included in Jhana factors?
=======
17: Jhāna-condition jhāna-paccaya is a name for the 7 so-called jhāna-factors, as these form a condition to the co-nascent mental and material phenomena, to wit: 1 thought-conception vitakka 2 discursive thinking vicāra 3 interest pīti 4 joy sukha 5 sadness domanassa 6 indifference upekkhā 7 concentration samādhi For definition s. Pāli terms.
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Re: Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

Postby Mkoll » Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:08 am

Source?
Peace,
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Re: Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

Postby chownah » Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:17 am

I found this at the very end of the definition of jhana of Nyanatiloka's dictionary:

"Jhāna in its widest sense (e.g. as one of the 24 conditions; s. paccaya 17), denotes any, even momentary or weak absorption of mind, when directed on a single object."

Looks like jhana can be used for situations not really related to the type of concentration the Buddha taught....I guess.....don't know for sure......
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Re: Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

Postby SarathW » Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:35 am

chownah wrote:I found this at the very end of the definition of jhana of Nyanatiloka's dictionary:

"Jhāna in its widest sense (e.g. as one of the 24 conditions; s. paccaya 17), denotes any, even momentary or weak absorption of mind, when directed on a single object."

Looks like jhana can be used for situations not really related to the type of concentration the Buddha taught....I guess.....don't know for sure......
chownah

Thanks.
The link is:

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... tm#paccaya
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Re: Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

Postby pilgrim » Fri Jun 06, 2014 5:33 am

In the texts the word jhana has quite a general meaning. It simply means to meditate. The 4 jhanas, however have specific meanings.
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Re: Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:33 am

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Re: Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

Postby StillABC » Fri Jun 06, 2014 2:19 pm

From what I found out: samādhi in all has five factor as generally known (vitakka, vicāra, pīti, vedana, ekaggata). vedana represent in jhananga (jhana ang ka) are joy, sadness indifference. Thus in jhana-paccaya, it shows 7 factors instead of generally known 5 factors of jhana.

For more detail, please refer to Abhidhammattha Sangaha "a comprehensive manual of Abhidhamma", Bhikkhu Bodhi Chap 7 Samuccayasangaha, paragraphg 16 Jhana Factors and Guide to para. 16, p. 272
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Re: Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

Postby vesak2014 » Fri Jun 06, 2014 5:08 pm

This thread is what happen when people rely on commentary and don't read the main suttas.
Good luck.
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Re: Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

Postby Virgo » Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:41 pm

Jhana factors condition the cittas and cetasikas they accompany by way of Jhana-condition. Therefore I am assuming this only applies to micchaa-samadhi since domanasa (unpleasant feeling) only accompanies akusala citta.

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Re: Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

Postby Zom » Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:57 pm

Therefore I am assuming this only applies to micchaa-samadhi since domanasa (unpleasant feeling) only accompanies akusala citta.


SN 48.40 tells us that domanassa ends completely in 2nd jhana. And there Buddha speaks about right samadhi, not wrong one.
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Re: Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

Postby Spiny Norman » Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:24 am

SarathW wrote:Why sadness included in Jhana factors?
=======
17: Jhāna-condition jhāna-paccaya is a name for the 7 so-called jhāna-factors, as these form a condition to the co-nascent mental and material phenomena, to wit: 1 thought-conception vitakka 2 discursive thinking vicāra 3 interest pīti 4 joy sukha 5 sadness domanassa 6 indifference upekkhā 7 concentration samādhi For definition s. Pāli terms.


I wonder if domanassa here refers to unpleasant spiritual feeling, as described in the 2nd frame of the Satipatthana Sutta? This is described in MN137.13 as "grief based on renunciation" which arises dependent on " a longing for the supreme liberation".
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Re: Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:50 am

I'm surprised that people have not read the suttas that Zom suggests...
Zom wrote:
Therefore I am assuming this only applies to micchaa-samadhi since domanasa (unpleasant feeling) only accompanies akusala citta.

SN 48.40 tells us that domanassa ends completely in 2nd jhana. And there Buddha speaks about right samadhi, not wrong one.

The IVth chapter of the 48th Samyutta discusses this list.

SN 48.31
“Bhikkhus, there are these five faculties. What five? The pleasure faculty, the pain faculty, the joy faculty, the displeasure faculty, the equanimity faculty. These are the five faculties.”


There is an analysis in http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"And what is the distress-faculty? Any mental pain, mental discomfort born of intellect-contact to be experienced as pain & discomfort. That is called the distress-faculty.

As Zom says, in SN 48.40 there is this discussion:
“Here, bhikkhus, while a bhikkhu is dwelling diligent, ardent, and resolute, there arises in him the displeasure faculty. [214] He understands thus: ‘There has arisen in me this displeasure faculty. That has a basis, a source, a causal formation, a condition. It is impossible for that displeasure faculty to arise without a basis, without a source, without a causal formation, without a condition. ’ He understands the displeasure faculty; he understands the origin of the displeasure faculty; he understands the cessation of the displeasure faculty; and he understands where the arisen displeasure faculty ceases without remainder.

“And where does the arisen displeasure faculty cease without remainder? With the subsiding of thought and examination, a bhikkhu enters and dwells in the second jhāna, which has internal confidence and unification of mind, is without thought and examination, and has rapture and happiness born of concentration. And it is here that the arisen displeasure faculty ceases without remainder.

Bhikkhu Bodhi notes:
This seems difficult to square with the usual jhāna formula, which indicates that the first jhāna is already free from all unwholesome states, including domanassa. Spk: The faculty of displeasure is abandoned in the access to the second jhāna but arises again when there is bodily fatigue and mental strain on account of thought and examination. But in the second jhāna, which is devoid of thought and examination, it does not arise at all.

These factors are, therefore not some "commentarial addition". On the contrary, the Abhidhamma and Commentaries are attempting to make sense out of some apparently contradictory suttas.

:anjali:
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Re: Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

Postby Spiny Norman » Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:17 am

mikenz66 wrote:These factors are, therefore not some "commentarial addition". On the contrary, the Abhidhamma and Commentaries are attempting to make sense out of some apparently contradictory suttas.


Yes, there do seem to be some contradictory descriptions of what is present and absent in the first jhana.
For example here in AN5.28: "There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal."
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Re: Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

Postby vesak2014 » Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:43 pm

mikenz66 wrote:These factors are, therefore not some "commentarial addition". On the contrary, the Abhidhamma and Commentaries are attempting to make sense out of some apparently contradictory suttas.

"Commentarial addition" doesn't always mean addition. In this case it is "commentarial reduction" instead of "commentarial addition". The pali text of SN 48.40 says dukkhindriyaṃ, domanas­sindriyaṃ, sukhindriyaṃ, somanas­sindriyaṃ, upekkhindriyaṃ, while Nyanatiloka dictionary says only domanassa (and notice the noun "indriya" is gone.)

Saying suttas as contradictory only shows doubt, unfirm conviction, it won't help anyone.

Spiny Norman wrote:Yes, there do seem to be some contradictory descriptions of what is present and absent in the first jhana.
For example here in AN5.28: "There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal."

Most people don't read sutta carefully and don't consider what other suttas have to say. The alleged contradiction is their problem, not the suttas' problem.

"vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ", rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, here you disregard the adjective "born from withdrawal".

SN 48.37 Dutiya­vibhaṅ­ga­sutta
Katamañca, bhikkhave, sukhindriyaṃ? Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, kāyikaṃ sukhaṃ, kāyikaṃ sātaṃ, kāya­samphas­sa­jaṃ sukhaṃ sātaṃ vedayitaṃ– idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, sukhindriyaṃ.

Katamañca, bhikkhave, dukkhindriyaṃ? Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, kāyikaṃ dukkhaṃ, kāyikaṃ asātaṃ, kāya­samphas­sa­jaṃ dukkhaṃ asātaṃ vedayitaṃ– idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, dukkhindriyaṃ.

Katamañca, bhikkhave, somanas­sindriyaṃ? Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, cetasikaṃ sukhaṃ, cetasikaṃ sātaṃ, mano­samphas­sa­jaṃ sukhaṃ sātaṃ vedayitaṃ– idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, somanas­sindriyaṃ.

Katamañca, bhikkhave, domanas­sindriyaṃ? Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, cetasikaṃ dukkhaṃ, cetasikaṃ asātaṃ, mano­samphas­sa­jaṃ dukkhaṃ asātaṃ vedayitaṃ– idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, domanas­sindriyaṃ.

Katamañca, bhikkhave, upekkhindriyaṃ? Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, kāyikaṃ vā cetasikaṃ vā nevasātaṃ nāsātaṃ vedayitaṃ– idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, upekkhindriyaṃ.


If you always remove adjective from every noun you read, yes they will be the same noun. If you generalize them such way then contradictions in many places as the result. "vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ" vs "kāyikaṃ sukhaṃ" for example. You generalized two different pali nouns. They both are "sukham" but of different types. Do you see your problem now?

If you examine closely, there are no contradictory suttas.

:anjali:
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Re: Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:32 pm

Hi vesak2014,

If you read my post carefully, I say "apparently contradictory suttas". Is has nothing to do with the doubt that you seem to be projecting. Like you, I was advocating carefully reading the suttas and not jumping to hasty conclusions. I would also advocate the same with the commentaries.

I'm sorry, but I am having trouble understanding this part of your post:
If you always remove adjective from every noun you read, yes they will be the same noun. If you generalize them such way then contradictions in many places as the result. "vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ" vs "kāyikaṃ sukhaṃ" for example. You generalized two different pali nouns. They both are "sukham" but of different types. Do you see your problem now?

I presume by "you" you don't mean me, since all I did was quote some suttas.

Could you please elaborate, and provide an English translation of the key terms? That would be very helpful.

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Re: Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:36 pm

vesak2014 wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:Yes, there do seem to be some contradictory descriptions of what is present and absent in the first jhana.
For example here in AN5.28: "There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal."

Most people don't read sutta carefully and don't consider what other suttas have to say. The alleged contradiction is their problem, not the suttas' problem.

"vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ", rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, here you disregard the adjective "born from withdrawal".


Perhaps I'm missing your point but the line:
"There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal."
suggests that one's entire body is pervaded by rapture and pleasure, and there is no room for anything else - including unpleasant mental feeling or grief.

The suttas are sometimes contradictory and ambiguous.
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Re: Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

Postby Sylvester » Mon Jun 09, 2014 2:22 am

mikenz66 wrote:Bhikkhu Bodhi notes:
This seems difficult to square with the usual jhāna formula, which indicates that the first jhāna is already free from all unwholesome states, including domanassa. Spk: The faculty of displeasure is abandoned in the access to the second jhāna but arises again when there is bodily fatigue and mental strain on account of thought and examination. But in the second jhāna, which is devoid of thought and examination, it does not arise at all.

These factors are, therefore not some "commentarial addition". On the contrary, the Abhidhamma and Commentaries are attempting to make sense out of some apparently contradictory suttas.
Mike



Hee hee. I wonder what the poor Commentators would have done if they had known of the Agama version of this sutta (Aviparītaka Sutra, now lost but cited in Northern Abhidharmic material). That appeared to have gotten its abandonment of the sadness faculty correctly, but made another mistake in making pain persist in the 1st Jhana.

Now, what's that sutta that talks of the impossibility of pain in the 1st Jhana?
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Re: Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jun 09, 2014 2:54 am

Hi Sylvester.

So is your interpretation that there is actually a transmission error?

Yes, it would be interesting if the ancient commentators had taken a text-critical approach. :reading:


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Re: Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

Postby Sylvester » Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:34 am

Hi Mike

I think it's the most reasonable explanation, in light of -

1. current scholarship in Textual Criticism; and
2. the obvious inconsistency with AN 5.176

I am of course open to other interpretations.

Edit - those interested in the convoluted history of SN 48.40 and its parallels can refer to http://ahandfulofleaves.files.wordpress ... p_2005.pdf.

Part of the problem which the Abhidharmikas had to grapple with was the wretched problem of kāyika (bodily) feelings. And Tse Fu Kuan outlines the Sautrantika argument that the pleasurable bodily feelings in jhana refer to the pleasurable five sense contact, and disputes the Sarvastivada and Theravada understanding that it refers to mental pleasure. The logical mis-step which I've addressed elsewhere comes from the Sautrantikas reading too much into the MN 43 passage on what can be known by the mind purified from the 5 senses - viewtopic.php?f=43&t=4597&start=80#p74650.

I think whatever reservations one may have about the lateness or antiquity of the final form of DN 22, its sections distinguishing pain (as bodily) from distress (as mental) can lay claim to being consistent with SN 36.6 and MN 148. A Chinese parallel to MN 148 (SA 304 : http://www.cbeta.org/cgi-bin/goto.pl?li ... 9_p0086c23) is even more explicit about the kinds of "bodily" contact. It specifies 6 contacts as bodily, include contact at the mind -

有六六法。何等為六六法。
謂六內入處.六外入處.六識身.六觸身.
六受 身.六愛身。 
何等為六內入處。謂眼入處.耳入
處.鼻入處.舌入處.身入處.意入處。
何等為六 外入處。色入處.聲入處.香入處.味入處.觸入
處.法入處。
云何六識身。謂眼識身.耳識身.鼻
識身.舌識身.身識身.意識身。

There are 6 (sets of) 6 dharmas. Which 6 (sets of) 6 dharmas?
The 6 internal āyatanas. 6 external āyatanas. 6 consciousnesses (arisen) bodily. 6 contacts (sparśa) (touched) bodily.
6 feelings (felt) bodily. 6 cravings bodily.
What are the 6 internal āyatanas? Eye āyatana, ear etc etc
What are the 6 external āyatanas? Form āyatana, sound etc etc
Thus, 6 consciousnesses (arisen) bodily. Eye consciousness (arisen) bodily etc etc to mental consciousness (arisen) bodily.


This Sarvastivadin sutra seems to be preserving the common Indian idiom of what constitutes the "body", ie the collective faculties through which the world is "seen, heard, sensed and cognised", a trope from Upanisadic literature that pops up frequently in the suttas.

The problem with the Sautrantika interpretation is that it is so far removed from the Indian conception of what constitutes the "body" that it has to concede that a person cannot experience mental pain (ie the bodily feeling) disjointed from grief (the emotion). This violates a central conception of how grief (save for the MN 44 exception) is generated by the latent tendency to aversion, a formation that can actually be arrested with meditation. The Sautrantika model is a bankrupt interpretation that does not admit of the possibility of feeling mental pain separately from grief.
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Re: Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

Postby randall » Tue Jun 10, 2014 6:09 pm

SarathW wrote:Why sadness included in Jhana factors?
=======
17: Jhāna-condition jhāna-paccaya is a name for the 7 so-called jhāna-factors, as these form a condition to the co-nascent mental and material phenomena, to wit: 1 thought-conception vitakka 2 discursive thinking vicāra 3 interest pīti 4 joy sukha 5 sadness domanassa 6 indifference upekkhā 7 concentration samādhi For definition s. Pāli terms.


Being part of the Patthana, the jhana-condition and it's seven factors are to be taken in a more open sense than just the five factors and jhanas. The jhana-conditions seven factors are reduced to five cetasikas (the three types feelings are the cetasika 'feeling') which associate with most of the 89 cittas to help stay onto the object of anything that we come into contact with. The seven factors are here to cover all the different wholesome and unwholesome cittas. As someone already pointed out in the same definition towards the end it says:
"Jhāna in its widest sense (e.g. as one of the 24 conditions; s. paccaya 17), denotes any, even momentary or weak absorption of mind, when directed on a single object."


The translation of "sadness" for the word domanassa is a little odd IMO considering domanassa is the factor that covers the two cittas rooted in dosa/hatred ("one conciousness, accompanied with displeasure, associated with aversion, unprompted/prompted") which can be any displeasure not just "sadness". The other two feelings/factors(uppekha and somanassa) cover the rest of the cittas whether it be kusala, akusala or indeterminate.

Nina Van Gorkom(The Conditionality of life, pg 102) adds:
The jhana-factors in the sense of jhana-condition assist the citta and the other cetasikas they accompany to be firmly fixed on the object that is experienced


she also adds(pg 103):
When someone commits an unwholesome deed, such as killing, the dosa-mulacitta, citta rooted in aversion, is conditioned by akusala jhana-factors by way of jhana-condition. It is accompanied by akusala vitakka which thinks of the object with violence, by vicara which is occupied with the object in an unwholesome way, by unpleasent feeling and by concentration which causes the citta to be firmly fixed on the object....Thus, as we have seen, jhana-factors are not only operating while one cultivates samatha, they are conditions which function time and again in daily life, no matter whether we perform wholesome or unwholesome deeds.



more info:
The Conditionality of Life, Nina van Gorkom, chapter: Jhana-condition:
https://archive.org/details/TheConditionalityOfLife

Handbook of Abhidhamma III, Venerable Silananda, pgs 28-29,44-45
http://buddhispano.net/sites/default/fi ... es-III.pdf

Abhidhammattha Sangaha, ed. Bhikkhu Bodhi, pgs 272,278,312
http://store.pariyatti.org/Comprehensiv ... _4362.html

Dhammasangani, 397a, 429a
http://buddhadhyana.org/dammatext/Abhid ... angini.pdf

Abhidhamma Studies, Venerable Nyanaponika Thera, chapter: The Factors of Absorption
http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books9/Nyana ... tudies.pdf
"Bhikkhus, possessing five factors, speech is well spoken, not badly spoken; it is blameless and beyond reproach by the wise. What five? It is spoken at the proper time; what is said is true; it is spoken gently; what is said is beneficial; it is spoken with a mind of loving-kindness. Possessing these five factors, speech is well spoken, not badly spoken; it is blameless and beyond reproach by the wise."
AN 5 198
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