Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

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Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:18 am

Greetings everyone,

I just wanted to share with you a diagrammatical representation of a non-time-delineated that I've designed and modified in conjunction with a few people who have provided useful feedback (who I am also pleased to see are now members of this very board).

This map has been very useful for me in terms of getting a big picture view of dependent origination and I hope others interested in exploring the non-commentarial model will find it of use too.

Comments, feedback and suggestions for improvement all welcome.

Dependent Origination Map 0.5.png
Dependent Origination Map 0.5.png (103.75 KiB) Viewed 1444 times


(Version 0.5 - Updated 21st April 2010)

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby appicchato » Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:50 am

Excellent Paul...

In the 'Nama' segment it's broken down into five different categories...this is a new one on me, as it is usually defined as consisting of the four mental groups...feeling, perception, mental formations, and consciousness...just wondering a little where you came up with the three besides feeling and perception...

Be well...
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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:50 pm

Greetings venerable,

Yes, now I'm wondering that too! I'm not ingenious enough to have thought of it myself so it must have come from somewhere. I'll have a think about it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby Jack » Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:07 pm

I agree with the others that you need the category of mental formations to account for all the other mental constituents.

Why do you call it a non-time-delineated model?

What interests me is how one takes the conceptual model of Dependent Origination into their real life. Care to comment?

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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby Will » Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:51 pm

Unlike retro and others I do not see the great value in this model vs the mundane one that applies to more than one lifetime. The former is useful and interesting but no more so than the ordinary one. And "non-time" will not work, for even moments during a day or one lifetime take some time.

Does not sankhara also mean "fabrications" - ie the effect or result? If that is the case, then how can we assume that every single kammic effect will take place in a few moments within this single lifetime? Some conditions for the result may not arise until a future lifetime.
Last edited by Will on Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby Fede » Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:20 pm

*Off-Topic* Will, your avatar is hiding a lot of your text. I can literally only read half of your posts.

BTT:

Retro, is there any way of making the attachment 'static'? I'm having trouble perusing it all. perhaps if it's not too much trouble, you could send it to me as an e-mail attachment?
I'd be interested in perusing it.

At my stage of study, this would be most welcome!

EDIT:

To my own astonishment, I've actually been able to do this myself!
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby stuka » Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:42 pm

Will wrote:Unlike retro and others I do not see ....



Yeah.
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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:07 am

Greetings Jack,
Jack wrote:I agree with the others that you need the category of mental formations to account for all the other mental constituents.

In compiling this, I've wanted to keep the scope of development restricted to the suttas, and by doing so leaving out anything that could be considered a later-development.

Why do you call it a non-time-delineated model?

This is because it isn't pegged across three lifetimes as it is in the commentaries (and thus, any sutta translations that depend on the commentaries). A good explanation of the differences between the commentarial interpretation and a non-time-delineated model can be found at

Dependent Origination - The Buddhist Law of Conditionality
by Ven. Prayudh Payutto
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... nation.htm

Jack wrote:What interests me is how one takes the conceptual model of Dependent Origination into their real life. Care to comment?

I'm a firm believer that the Buddha taught only that which was related to the cessation of suffering, as per the precedent he outlined in SN 56.31 Simsapa Sutta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html) so it must be relevant in some way. Personally I find it very useful whenever I notice even a slightest moment of discontent, I can try to be mindful firstly of 'what just happened?' and see that it maps to the model and then I can actually try to actively observe discontent and see the model as being true. To me, dependent origination is like a more detailed version of the 2nd and 3rd Noble Truths.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:22 am

Greetings venerable,

appicchato wrote:In the 'Nama' segment it's broken down into five different categories...this is a new one on me, as it is usually defined as consisting of the four mental groups...feeling, perception, mental formations, and consciousness...just wondering a little where you came up with the three besides feeling and perception...

I suspect it was from here - http://www.buddhamind.info/leftside/tea ... d-nama.htm

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby Jechbi » Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:09 pm

Dear Retro,

Thank you for posting this here. I did not understand why it was regarded as controversial in the first place. One question: When I first saw this chart, I had the impression that literal rebirth is implicit in it. What do you think?

Metta
:)
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby Fede » Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:54 pm

Would somebody please explain to me what is meant by Eye/ear/nose/and so on - Feeling?
Craving for certain stimuli contact with certain stimuli and the sense-bases themselves are relatively self-explanatory.
But I don't think I fully comprehend the 'feeling' inference....

Are we talking about actual sensation and action of the sense itself.... the sense in action?

Or is there an 'emotive' angle?
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/
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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jan 01, 2009 8:32 pm

Fede wrote:Would somebody please explain to me what is meant by Eye/ear/nose/and so on - Feeling?
Craving for certain stimuli contact with certain stimuli and the sense-bases themselves are relatively self-explanatory.
But I don't think I fully comprehend the 'feeling' inference....

Are we talking about actual sensation and action of the sense itself.... the sense in action?

Or is there an 'emotive' angle?


their are three types of feeling pleasant painful and neither pleasant or painful so it is the first reaction to the sense object that the feeling is about!
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby christopher::: » Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:24 pm

Excellent work, Retro!

;)
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:02 pm

Greetings Jechbi,

Jechbi wrote:Thank you for posting this here. I did not understand why it was regarded as controversial in the first place.


It's controversial to the extent that it differs from the commentarial 'three-lives' version. It has significant acceptance though from many Theravadins (and also I notice, Zen practitioners) so to many it's just the natural interpretation.

Jechbi wrote:One question: When I first saw this chart, I had the impression that literal rebirth is implicit in it. What do you think?

[/quote]
I think it constitutes a different subject to rebirth altogether. In other words it's a model of suffering, not a model of transmigration. Accordingly it neither denies nor affirms rebirth in and of itself. I think it's entirely consistent with rebirth though, and that the processes outlined needn't cease, simply because conventional death occurs.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Jan 02, 2009 9:57 am

Greetings,

Some interesting thoughts on the non-time-delineated model of dependent origination from Ajahn Sumedho...

Extract from The Way It Is
http://www.amaravati.org/abmnew/documen ... 20moa.html

Image

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby christopher::: » Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:33 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Some interesting thoughts on the non-time-delineated model of dependent origination from Ajahn Sumedho...

Extract from The Way It Is
http://www.amaravati.org/abmnew/documen ... 20moa.html

Image

Metta,
Retro. :)

excerpt:

Love is no problem once there is no delusion, once there is no self, there's nothing to hinder or block off or prevent love. But as long as there is self-illusion then love is just an idea that we long for but are always feeling disappointed with because the self is getting in the way. The self-view is always blinding us, making us forget and deluding us that there isn't any love. We feel alienated and lonely and lost because there doesn't seem to be any love, so we blame somebody else. Or we blame ourselves, maybe because we're not loveable. Or we become cynics.

But the Buddha pointed to this and asked what was the real problem? It's the illusion of a self. It's the attachment to that perception. That affects the consciousness and everything else so we are always creating the separations, and the dissatisfaction and identifying with that which is not ourselves. Once we are free from that illusion then love is ever-present. It's just that we can't see it or enjoy it when we are blinded by our desires and fears. As you understand this more and more your faith increases and there is a willingness to give up everything. There is a real zest, a joy in being with the way things are.




Wonderful essay. Thanks for that, Paul. This also is where Zen points, to the moment, stepping out of our illusions of self and other into awareness in this moment. Not that Zen Buddhists deny rebirth just that the emphasis is on transforming our minds right here, right NOW, from moment to moment, because that's where we live, where everything gets created and falls away.

There is only now, actually, so it's only in the now that freedom can be practiced and discovered.

Beautiful writing!
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:27 am

Greetings,

I've updated this map, now bringing it up to version 0.3.

There's a few more things by way of explanation, a bit of reclassification etc.

I would greatly appreciate input from anyone, particularly those who have made a genuine attempt to get their heads around the profound teaching of dependent origination.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Attachments
Dependent Origination Map 0.3.png
Dependent Origination Map 0.3.png (92.14 KiB) Viewed 1578 times
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby Jechbi » Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:34 am

Thanks, Retro. Could you elaborate on your inclusion of dana, metta and panna under sankhara?
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:45 am

Greetings Jechbi,

Thanks for the question.

Failing the first test to "see things as they really are", the individual creates kamma (think by way of contrast to how an arahant does not create kamma, rather their actions are "kiriya" or "functional"). What we generally call "bad" or unwholesome kamma consists of actions rooted in greed, aversion and delusion... whereas "good" or wholesome kamma consists of generosity, lovindkindness and wisdom.

Thus, the sankhara conditions the quality of consciousness.

I see you called out only those wholesome kammic attributes, to which I'd quickly note that dependent origination represents all samsaric activity, and as you'd be aware, good kamma itself leads only to heavenly destinations, not to nibbana... that requires complete penetration of the 4NT (hence the first link).

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby Jechbi » Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:47 am

That's excellent, thanks.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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