Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby Dmytro » Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:39 am

Greetings,

Here's a dynamic chart of Conditioned Arising:

http://dhamma.ru/lib/paticcas.htm

Comments, feedback and suggestions for improvement are also welcome.

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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:45 am

Greetings Dmytro,

Dmytro wrote:Comments, feedback and suggestions for improvement are also welcome.


I don't much fancy the blue flags ;)

Setting aside that aspect, have you considered anything directional to represent the mutual-dependency of nama-rupa and vinnana which (from memory) is detailed in the Mahanidana Sutta?

I would have done it in mine but it looks ungainly when I do it... but since yours is already loaded with arrows, it should fit well.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:32 am

Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination
But does not paticcasamuppada play itself out through time, and it is circular?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:44 am

Greetings Tilt,

But does not paticcasamuppada play itself out through time


Sure, but that doesn't mean it needs to be pegged across three lifetimes. Hence, "non-time delineated"... not stating what will happen where, but illustrating the causality and conditioning.

and it is circular?


If I may respond with a counter-question... how does suffering in its myriad forms condition ignorance, or the inability to fully penetrate the Four Noble Truths?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:53 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

But does not paticcasamuppada play itself out through time


Sure, but that doesn't mean it needs to be pegged across three lifetimes. Hence, "non-time delineated"... not stating what will happen where, but illustrating the causality and conditioning.


and it is circular?


If I may respond with a counter-question... how does suffering in its myriad forms condition ignorance, or the inability to fully penetrate the Four Noble Truths?

Metta,
Retro. :)


Nothing conditions ignorance?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:58 am

Greetings Tilt,

I see ignorance as a negation of the ability to see-things-as-they-are.

Thus, mundane rather than supramundane, worldling rather than arahant.

So your question is a bit like like asking what conditions "non-arahantship".

If I recall, the Buddha said that ignorance is the cause of ignorance... which to me makes perfect sense. The absence of something (i.e. ariya) is the condition for that absence continuing. To that extent it is circular, yes.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:03 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

I see ignorance as a negation of the ability to see-things-as-they-are.

Thus, mundane rather than supramundane, worldling rather than arahant.

So your question is a bit like like asking what conditions "non-arahantship".

If I recall, the Buddha said that ignorance is the cause of ignorance... which to me makes perfect sense. The absence of something (i.e. ariya) is the condition for that absence continuing. To that extent it is circular, yes.

Metta,
Retro. :)


Can't increase or decrease your ignorance?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:33 am

Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:Can't increase or decrease your ignorance?


Wisdom can, but I don't see what good suffering itself does for increasing or decreasing ignorance... what do you think? If anything it should make you a little more worldly wise, but the Buddha's depictions of the samsaric adventures of sentient beings don't lend much credence to that sort of interpretation either.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:38 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:Can't increase or decrease your ignorance?


Wisdom can, but I don't see what good suffering itself does for increasing or decreasing ignorance... what do you think? If anything it should make you a little more worldly wise, but the Buddha's depictions of the samsaric adventures of sentient beings don't lend much credence to that sort of interpretation either.

Metta,
Retro. :)


Another way of asking this, is avijja conditioned? If ignorance increases, the deeper the hole we are in, the harder it is to get out, it would seem. So, you are suggesting that this is not circular in any way.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:43 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Another way of asking this, is avijja conditioned? If ignorance increases, the deeper the hole we are in, the harder it is to get out, it would seem. So, you are suggesting that this is not circular in any way.


That what exactly is not circular in any way?

From MN9...

"And what is ignorance, what is the origin of ignorance, what is the cessation of ignorance, what is the way leading to the cessation of ignorance? Not knowing about dukkha, not knowing about the origin of dukkha, not knowing about the cessation of dukkha, not knowing about the way leading to the cessation of dukkha — this is called ignorance. With the arising of the taints there is the arising of ignorance; with the cessation of the taints there is the cessation of ignorance. The way leading to the cessation of ignorance is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... b.html#p66

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:48 am

Alrighty, then, paticcasamuppada is circular.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:51 am

Greetings Tilt,

It's not all one way traffic, as Dmytro's illustration calls out, but I would argue it's not circular in a "Wheel of Life" sort of context.

Image

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby Jechbi » Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:13 am

retrofuturist wrote:... I would argue it's not circular in a "Wheel of Life" sort of context.
How would you argue that?

(Also, a minor point, but I noticed that you have the word "aging" spelled incorrectly.)
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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:32 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

It's not all one way traffic, as Dmytro's illustration calls out, but I would argue it's not circular in a "Wheel of Life" sort of context.

Dmytro's illustration needs a few more arrows as to what conditions avijja.
Paticcasamuppada is not at all linearly circular.

Also, paticcasaumppada in its traditional structure certainly does not negate a three life reading, and by its language strongly suggests it. And it certainly suggests - can only reasonably be read in terms of - a three time period reading.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:02 am

Greetings Jechbi

Jechbi wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:... I would argue it's not circular in a "Wheel of Life" sort of context.
How would you argue that?


As I've done above.

The Buddha classically explained dependent origination in terms of "a" as condition for (or conditioning) "b" as condition for "c" as condition for "d" and so on... and the "wheel of life" diagram implies that the myriad forms of suffering which constitute the twelve nidana, are the condition for "a", the first (i.e. ignorance, avijja).

Suffering is vipaka... it is the result.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:04 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Also, paticcasaumppada in its traditional structure certainly does not negate a three life reading, and by its language strongly suggests it. And it certainly suggests - can only reasonably be read in terms of - a three time period reading.


I'd suggest that if you re-read Magic Of The Mind (and I know you've read it, as you're the one who recommended it to me), with a copy of the above visual model in hand, you may think differently to what I've bolded above. In fact, that's just what I'm doing (i.e. re-reading it straight away)... it might be interesting if you did so too and we could compare notes... if you have time for 88 pages of quality Dhamma that is :tongue:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby Jechbi » Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:18 am

retrofuturist wrote:... the "wheel of life" diagram implies that the myriad forms of suffering which constitute the twelve nidana, are the condition for "a", the first (i.e. ignorance, avijja).

Suffering is vipaka... it is the result.

Thanks.
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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby Dmytro » Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:22 am

Greetings Retro,

I don't much fancy the blue flags ;)


The chart is based on the suttas, including Mahanidana sutta, which describes the three lives.

See also the article by Ven.Bhikkhu Bodhi:
http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index. ... st&id=3220

Setting aside that aspect, have you considered anything directional to represent the mutual-dependency of nama-rupa and vinnana which (from memory) is detailed in the Mahanidana Sutta?


This mutual dependency is already represented, on one hand, by links from viññana to phassa, and on the other hand, by links from salayatana (which includes mano, a part of nama) to viññana.

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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:29 am

Greetings Dmytro,

Dmytro wrote:The chart is based on the suttas, including Mahanidana sutta, which describes the three lives.


Your chart does, but I disagree that the Mahanidana Sutta does anything of the sort. However, if you'd like to point me to a specific section, I'm happy to discuss.

Dmytro wrote:See also the article by Ven.Bhikkhu Bodhi:
http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index. ... st&id=3220


I'm familiar with his critique of Nanavira... again, if there's anything specific within that text that you would like to point to that you think may be of relevance, I'm happy to discuss.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby Dmytro » Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:32 am

Hi Tiltbillings,

Dmytro's illustration needs a few more arrows as to what conditions avijja.


There are mutual links between āsava and avijja in Sammaditthi sutta:

Āsavasamudayā avijjāsamudayo, āsavanirodhā avijjānirodho

Avijjāsamudayā āsavasamudayo, avijjānirodhā āsavanirodho

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Do you think they are worth including?

Paticcasamuppada is not at all linearly circular.


Then how would you describe it?

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