Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby clw_uk » Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:34 am

The chart is based on the suttas, including Mahanidana sutta, which describes the three lives.




No suttas put it as three lives, the one you mentioned does have wording that lends its self to a rebirth cosmology but its on its own. Its interesting to note that there is an exact same version of the above sutta (theme, setting and teaching) in the SN that does not mention "consciousness going into womb"



Its not till we get to the commentaries and Abhidhamma that we get the reincarnation



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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby Dmytro » Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:41 am

Greetings Retro,

I disagree that the Mahanidana Sutta does anything of the sort. However, if you'd like to point me to a specific section, I'm happy to discuss.


"'From birth as a requisite condition come aging and death.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from birth as a requisite condition come aging and death. If there were no birth at all, in any way, of anything anywhere — i.e., of devas in the state of devas, of celestials in the state of celestials, of spirits in the state of spirits, of demons in the state of demons, of human beings in the human state, of quadrupeds in the state of quadrupeds, of birds in the state of birds, of snakes in the state of snakes, or of any being in its own state — in the utter absence of birth, from the cessation of birth, would aging and death be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for aging and death, i.e., birth.

...

"'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. If consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would name-and-form take shape in the womb?"

"No, lord."

"If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart, would name-and-form be produced for this world?"

"No, lord."

"If the consciousness of the young boy or girl were to be cut off, would name-and-form ripen, grow, and reach maturity?"

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for name-and-form, i.e., consciousness."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

22. "And what is aging and death, what is the origin of aging and death, what is the cessation of aging and death, what is the way leading to the cessation of aging and death? The aging of beings in the various orders of beings, their old age, brokenness of teeth, grayness of hair, wrinkling of skin, decline of life, weakness of faculties — this is called aging. The passing of beings out of the various orders of beings, their passing away, dissolution, disappearance, dying, completion of time, dissolution of the aggregates, laying down of the body — this is called death. So this aging and this death are what is called aging and death. With the arising of birth there is the arising of aging and death. With the cessation of birth there is the cessation of aging and death. The way leading to the cessation of aging and death is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration.

...

26. "And what is birth, what is the origin of birth, what is the cessation of birth, what is the way leading to the cessation of birth? The birth of beings into the various orders of beings, their coming to birth, precipitation [in a womb], generation, manifestation of the aggregates, obtaining the bases for contact — this is called birth. With the arising of being there is the arising of birth. With the cessation of being there is the cessation of birth. The way leading to the cessation of birth is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... html#aging

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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:44 am

Dmytro wrote:Hi Tiltbillings,

Dmytro's illustration needs a few more arrows as to what conditions avijja.


There are mutual links between āsava and avijja in Sammaditthi sutta:

Āsavasamudayā avijjāsamudayo, āsavanirodhā avijjānirodho

Avijjāsamudayā āsavasamudayo, avijjānirodhā āsavanirodho

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Do you think they are worth including?


I think so.

Paticcasamuppada is not at all linearly circular.


Then how would you describe it?

Metta, Dmytro


I think your diagram nicely shows the mutual interacion of the various factors, which what I am getting at.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby Dmytro » Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:47 am

Hi clw_uk,

No suttas put it as three lives, the one you mentioned does have wording that lends its self to a rebirth cosmology but its on its own.


I have just also given a description from Sammaditthi sutta.

Its interesting to note that there is an exact same version of the above sutta (theme, setting and teaching) in the SN that does not mention "consciousness going into womb"


A reference would be appreciated.

Its not till we get to the commentaries and Abhidhamma that we get the reincarnation


On the contrary, the 'momentary' interpretation of paticca-samuppada first appears in the commentary to Abhidhamma-pitaka, Sammoha-vinodani:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy ... a.htm#note

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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby Dmytro » Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:54 am

Hi Tiltbillings,

I think your diagram nicely shows the mutual interacion of the various factors, which what I am getting at.


I think it's essential to understand what this model represents. I would describe it as self-reproduction, [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopoesis"]autopoiesis[/url] of suffering.

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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:06 am

clw_uk wrote:Its not till we get to the commentaries and Abhidhamma that we get the reincarnation


There is no reincarnation in the commentaries or the Abhidhamma.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:28 am

Greetings Dmytro,

Dmytro wrote:"'From birth as a requisite condition come aging and death.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from birth as a requisite condition come aging and death. If there were no birth at all, in any way, of anything anywhere — i.e., of devas in the state of devas, of celestials in the state of celestials, of spirits in the state of spirits, of demons in the state of demons, of human beings in the human state, of quadrupeds in the state of quadrupeds, of birds in the state of birds, of snakes in the state of snakes, or of any being in its own state — in the utter absence of birth, from the cessation of birth, would aging and death be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for aging and death, i.e., birth.


That's fine. Note though the use of the term "discerned" in the translation, rather than "occur" or "come to be". Yet, how can "death" be known and discerned? As Bhikkhu Nanananda states (p26, Magic Of The Mind), "The law of Dependent Arising in a Noble Norm (ariyo nayo) which in all its twelve-linked completeness is well-seen and well-penetrated through wisdom (pannaya suditto hoti suppatividdho) even by a Stream-winner (sotapanna) who may not possess the knowledge of past lives"

Dmytro wrote:"'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. If consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would name-and-form take shape in the womb?"

"No, lord."

"If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart, would name-and-form be produced for this world?"

"No, lord."

"If the consciousness of the young boy or girl were to be cut off, would name-and-form ripen, grow, and reach maturity?"

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for name-and-form, i.e., consciousness."


Again, note that it speaks not only of the first moment of consciousness in this life, but also later in life at the time of the "young boy or girl", firstly indicating that it's not a "once in a lifetime" event indicating conception... rather, that is a repeated process throughout life (as are all the other links). Furthermore, "name and form" should be understood as such... (from the Sammaditthi Sutta of the MN...)

"Feeling, perception, intention, contact, attention - these O friends are called 'name'. The four great element and for dependent on them - these, O friends, are called 'form".


Thus, I do not accept that this step is explicitly talking about a transition from one life to the second, as the "three lives" translation would infer.

Dmytro wrote:22. "And what is aging and death, what is the origin of aging and death, what is the cessation of aging and death, what is the way leading to the cessation of aging and death? The aging of beings in the various orders of beings, their old age, brokenness of teeth, grayness of hair, wrinkling of skin, decline of life, weakness of faculties — this is called aging. The passing of beings out of the various orders of beings, their passing away, dissolution, disappearance, dying, completion of time, dissolution of the aggregates, laying down of the body — this is called death. So this aging and this death are what is called aging and death. With the arising of birth there is the arising of aging and death. With the cessation of birth there is the cessation of aging and death. The way leading to the cessation of aging and death is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration.


I would argue that the "aging and death" described here is that arising from attavadupadana (attachment to the I concept), which leads to sensuous becoming and the birth of the falsely-perceived self. This is of course the strongest, most significant and most powerful "birth" conditioned by ignorance that we will experience in this lifetime... that of me, myself and I. The process, going from ignorance through to death is the "house builder" that the Buddha refers to in this emphatic Dhammapada quote (vv 153-154)...

"Through many a samsaric birth have I ran
Seeking the house-builder in vain
Pain it is to be born again and again.

O! Housebuilder, though art seen
Thou shalt build no house again
Shattered lie all thy rafters
Thy roof-top is torn asunder
Mind attained fermentless state
Reached is craving's end


In other words, having overcome ignorance, the dependent origination sequence has ceases, thus craving has ended, and becoming and birth in their multifarious forms have ceased.

In conjunction with this, consider also the following, again from Bhikkhu Nanananda (p83) ...

"The Buddha realized that 'birth' and 'death' are inseparable collaries of the conceit of existence. The law of impermanence which holds sway even in heavenly realms would militate against any notion of immortal existence. Besides, the quest for immortal existence was only a symptom of the deep-seated fear of death. If only this obsessional fear could be removed the problem would be no more. Hence he advanced a novel type of solution to the problem of life and death. He pointed out that although immortal existence is impossible, one could still experience 'ambrosial' [1] deathlessness - and that even here and now. One had to recognise fully the truths of impermanence, suffering and not-self whereby 'existence', on which both 'birth' and 'death' depend is made to cease..... Thus instead of attempting to 'stifle' death artificially by heavenly ambrosia, the Buddha saw to it that death died a natural death in a sphere of transcendental experience of a Deathless attainable in this very mortal word"

Existence is to be understood as per SN12.15 at the end of this post.

[1] Itiv 62 - "Having touched with the body the Deathless Element which is Asset-less and realized the relinquishment of all assets, the Fully Enlightened One who is influx-free, teaches the Sorrowless, Taintless State


No ignorance = no birth, aging and death.

dmytro wrote:26. "And what is birth, what is the origin of birth, what is the cessation of birth, what is the way leading to the cessation of birth? The birth of beings into the various orders of beings, their coming to birth, precipitation [in a womb], generation, manifestation of the aggregates, obtaining the bases for contact — this is called birth. With the arising of being there is the arising of birth. With the cessation of being there is the cessation of birth. The way leading to the cessation of birth is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... html#aging


Firstly, I would suggest we take out the crassly inserted "in a womb" that does not actually appear in the text. Secondly, I would suggest we look upon the bolded and particularly underlined "being" section in the context of SN 12.15...

Dwelling at Savatthi... Then Ven. Kaccayana Gotta approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To what extent is there right view?"

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."


I want to thank you for your questions Dmytro... that have presented a good challenge. As the Buddha said in DN 15...

Deep is this dependent co-arising, and deep its appearance. It's because of not understanding and not penetrating this Dhamma that this generation is like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, and bad destinations.


Thus, we should all continue to investigate further until we develop penetrating wisdom and attain the deathless.

I'd like to think that you might also consider what I have presented too, and maybe even take up the challenge I issued to Tilt so that we can investigate further.

Metta,
Retro. :)

P.S. Read also the first quote you provided in the context of the above responses.
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby Dmytro » Fri Aug 14, 2009 11:05 am

Hi Retro,

Again, note that it speaks not only of the first moment of consciousness in this life, but also later in life at the time of the "young boy or girl", firstly indicating that it's not a "once in a lifetime" event indicating conception... rather, that is a repeated process throughout life (as are all the other links). Furthermore, "name and form" should be understood as such... (from the Sammaditthi Sutta of the MN...)


That the consciousness is a repeated process is obvious. I don't understand how this substantiates the momentary interpretation of paticca-samuppada.

There's no argument about the present-life section. The key question is to which life the first two links, avijja and sankhara, and last two links, jati and jaramarana, belong.

This question is answered by Mahanidana sutta, Sammaditthi sutta, and other suttas (I can give more references).

I have yet to hear a single quotation from the suttas that would support the momentary interpretation.

In other words, having overcome ignorance, the dependent origination sequence has ceases, thus craving has ended, and becoming and birth in their multifarious forms have ceased.


Yes, with the cessation of craving there will be no more rebirth in the next life.

However the mind-moments continue to be 'born', hence the commentarial momentary interpretation does not make much sense in this context.

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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Aug 14, 2009 11:20 am

Greetings Dmytro,

Dmytro wrote:That the consciousness is a repeated process is obvious. I don't understand how this substantiates the momentary interpretation of paticca-samuppada.


It doesn't. It doesn't preclude it either, which is the main point. It does preclude it being a "once in a lifetime event".

Dmytro wrote:There's no argument about the present-life section. The key question is to which life the first two links, avijja and sankhara, and last two links, jati and jaramarana, belong.


OK, though we may differ in our understanding of the adjacent nidanas and their links... e.g. from becoming to birth.

Dmytro wrote:I have yet to hear a single quotation from the suttas that would support the momentary interpretation.


I would suggest they all do, and it's only when looking at it through the lens of the commentaries (which translators are oft to do) that it can appear otherwise... especially when they toss in terms like "in the womb" into a translation, translate "the future" as "future lives", becoming as existence and so on.

In other words, having overcome ignorance, the dependent origination sequence has ceases, thus craving has ended, and becoming and birth in their multifarious forms have ceased.


Yes, with the cessation of craving there will be no more rebirth in the next life.


Or this one. Don't fall into the trap of thinking about a "person" who is born, who dies, who is nama-rupa, whose consciousness alights here and there etc. ... there is no person, this is integral to the Buddha's teaching of the Dhamma. He tells us repeatedly about anatta, and this should not be forgotten when looking at his most profound teaching, dependent origination.

However the mind-moments continue to be 'born', hence the commentarial momentary interpretation does not make much sense in this context.


That is no longer the providence of dependent origination. Ignorance has ceased, the supramundane consciousness has no found footing in name-and-form. When consciousness finding no footing (i.e. the deathless, nibbana) nothing is born and nothing will die.

You're obviously interested in, and knowledgeable in the space of dependent origination Dmytro. Can I please emplore you to obtain a copy of Bhikkhu Nanananda's "The Magic Of The Mind: An Exposition Of The Kalakarama Sutta", as published by the BPS. This venerable sir delivers a far more eloquent and well-sequenced garland of flowers than I could ever hope to explain. It's an important subject, worth reading far and wide on, with an open mind. This discussion between us here has limited potential because the other's viewpoints are viewed through our own frames of reference, our current views on dependent origination and what it is and how it works. What I'm proposing is a significantly radical overhaul of what "existence" itself means, and rather than me poke a stick at aspects of the three-lives interpretation, I'd encourage you to read the text which magnificently lays out the structure of dependent origination which needn't be pegged over multiple lives.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby Rhino » Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:54 pm

Dmytro wrote:The key question is to which life the first two links, avijja and sankhara, and last two links, jati and jaramarana, belong.

I'm not sure if you're familiar with Nanavira's writings but Nanavira described the problem with the three-live interpretation as following:
There remains, however, a reason for dissatisfaction with the general manner of this (three-life) interpretation. The Buddha has said (Majjhima iii,8 <M.i,191>) that he who sees the Dhamma sees paticcasamuppāda; and he has also said that the Dhamma is sanditthika and akālika, that it is immediately visible and without involving time (see in particular Majjhima iv,8 <M.i,265>). Now it is evident that the twelve items, avijjā to jarāmarana, cannot, if the traditional interpretation is correct, all be seen at once; for they are spread over three successive existences. I may, for example, see present viññāna to vedanā, but I cannot now see the kamma of the past existence—avijjā and sankhārā—that (according to the traditional interpretation) was the cause of these present things. Or I may see tanhā and so on, but I cannot now see the jāti and jarāmarana that will result from these things in the next existence. And the situation is no better if it is argued that since all twelve items are present in each existence it is possible to see them all at once. It is, no doubt, true that all these things can be seen at once, but the avijjā and sankhārā that I now see are the cause (says the traditional interpretation) of viññāna to vedanā in the next existence, and have no causal connexion with the viññāna to vedanā that I now see. In other words, the relation sankhārapaccayā viññānam cannot be seen in either case. The consequence of this is that the paticcasamuppāda formulation (if the traditional interpretation is correct) is something that, in part at least, must be taken on trust. And even if there is memory of the past existence the situation is still unsatisfactory, since memory is not on the same level of certainty as present reflexive experience. Instead of imass'uppādā idam uppajjati, imassa nirodhā idam nirujjhati, 'with arising of this this arises, with cessation of this this ceases', the traditional interpretation says, in effect, imassa nirodhā idam uppajjati, 'with cessation of this, this arises'.
Notes on Dhamma :: A NOTE ON PATICCASAMUPPÁDA §7



Dmytro wrote:Yes, with the cessation of craving there will be no more rebirth in the next life.

To my understanding that's not wrong but not quite correct. With the cessation of craving there is no more the delusion of "I am", "Me" and "Self". With the cessation of this delusion there is no one who is born, who is aging and dying. See Majjhima Nikaya 140:
"'He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not flow. And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? 'I am' is a construing. 'I am this' is a construing. 'I shall be' is a construing. 'I shall not be'... 'I shall be possessed of form'... 'I shall not be possessed of form'... 'I shall be percipient'... 'I shall not be percipient'... 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' is a construing. Construing is a disease, construing is a cancer, construing is an arrow. By going beyond all construing, he is said to be a sage at peace.

"Furthermore, a sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die, is unagitated, and is free from longing. He has nothing whereby he would be born. Not being born, will he age? Not aging, will he die? Not dying, will he be agitated? Not being agitated, for what will he long? It was in reference to this that it was said, 'He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not flow. And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace.' Now, monk, you should remember this, my brief analysis of the six properties."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.140.than.html

With the cessation of greed, hate and ignorance there is no more birth (of "I am", not physical re-birth) and aging, suffering and death. With the cessation of birth there is no more re-birth, but they are not synonymic.
Having heard their message with right gnosis,
the wise directly knowing
the ending of birth,
come to no further becoming. Itv 104

The Buddha said that he had achieved the deathless here and now and not "there is one more time aging and dying left over".
With best wishes

Only in a vertical view, straight down into the abyss of his own personal existence, is a man capable of apprehending the perilous insecurity of his situation; and only a man who does apprehend this is prepared to listen to the Buddha's Teaching.
Nanavira Thera - Notes on Dhamma
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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby clw_uk » Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:31 pm

Sadhu Rhino



Ajahn Chah taught something similar


Therefore the Buddha didn’t discriminate between laymen and monks,
he taught all people to practise to know the truth of the san˙kha¯ras. When
we know this truth, we let them go. If we know the truth there will be no
more becoming or birth. How is there no more birth? There is no way
for birth to take place because we fully know the truth of san˙kha¯ras. If
we fully know the truth, then there is peace. Having or not having, it’s
all the same. Gain and loss are one. The Buddha taught us to know
this. This is peace; peace from happiness, unhappiness, gladness and
sorrow.

We must see that there is no reason to be born. Born in what way?
Born into gladness: When we get something we like we are glad over
it. If there is no clinging to that gladness there is no birth; if there is
clinging, this is called ‘birth’. So if we get something, we aren’t born
(into gladness). If we lose, then we aren’t born (into sorrow). This
is the birthless and the deathless. Birth and death are both founded in
clinging to and cherishing the san˙kha¯ras.

So the Buddha said. “There is no more becoming for me, finished
is the holy life, this is my last birth.” There! He knew the birthless and
the deathless. This is what the Buddha constantly exhorted his disciples
to know. This is the right practice. If you don’t reach it, if you don’t
reach the Middle Way, then you won’t transcend suffering




Birth and death of "I" through clinging not birth and death of the aggregates


As for the sutta in the SN i will have to dig around, will post the reference when i find it


metta
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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby Individual » Sat Aug 15, 2009 3:31 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings everyone,

I just wanted to share with you a diagrammatical representation of a non-time-delineated that I've designed and modified in conjunction with a few people who have provided useful feedback (who I am also pleased to see are now members of this very board).

This map has been very useful for me in terms of getting a big picture view of dependent origination and I hope others interested in exploring the non-commentarial model will find it of use too.

Comments, feedback and suggestions for improvement all welcome.

Metta,
Retro. :)

A person might ask, "Why use a non-time delineating model"?

An initial response might be that a time delineated model poses problems (i.e. of how consciousness is reborn after death). Also, since we know of the Big Bang, we know that "time" itself had a beginning and cannot be said to be without beginning.

Still, in my opinion, it's most intuitive to think of a time and space beyond the universe, a "hyperspace," where universes and bubbles of space-time can be bubble up and collapse. If dependent origination occurs across the many realms, it would be most beneficial of all to have a scientific account of dependent origination and rebirth, by which the many realms, the twelve chains, are all explained in clear terms -- that there is an actual scientific account of consciousness.
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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby Dmytro » Sat Aug 15, 2009 6:36 am

Hi Retro,

Don't fall into the trap of thinking about a "person" who is born, who dies, who is nama-rupa, whose consciousness alights here and there etc. ... there is no person, this is integral to the Buddha's teaching of the Dhamma.


It is sad that annihilationist interpretation has gained so much currency.
Buddha never said that the person does not exist, or ceases to exist:

"And which is the carrier of the burden? 'The person,' it should be said. This venerable one with such a name, such a clan-name. This is called the carrier of the burden.

Bhara sutta, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"Furthermore, a sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die, is unagitated, and is free from longing. He has nothing whereby he would be born. Not being born, will he age? Not aging, will he die? Not dying, will he be agitated? Not being agitated, for what will he long? It was in reference to this that it was said, 'He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not flow. And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace.' Now, monk, you should remember this, my brief analysis of the six properties."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Annihilationist interpretation originated from the Vajira Gatha
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html , made it's way into the Milinda's Questions, and then into Visuddhimagga.

It seems that the modern Buddhism is put under hard pressure by scientism, forcing it to relinguish anything which does not conform with the views of the modern science.

I have read some works of Ven. Nanananda and Ven. Nanavira. I would rather read the words of the Buddha.

Metta, Dmytro
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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Aug 15, 2009 6:39 am

Greetings Dmytro,

There is nothing annihilationist about understanding that the five aggregates are not-self.

"Person" is just a conventional designation for the perceived continuity and stability of the aggregates.

Thus the Buddha was right to say it was the "person" that carries the burden... since the Buddha could see through what "a person" really was, he was able to lay down the burden.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby Dmytro » Sat Aug 15, 2009 6:55 am

Hi Retro,

Ignorance has ceased, the supramundane consciousness has no found footing in name-and-form.


"Person" is just a conventional designation for the perceived continuity and stability of the aggregates.


This model of 'supramundane consciousness', 'conventional designation', the momentary interpretation of paticca-samuppada, the interpretation of 'anatta' as the absense of person - that's exactly the commentarial position.

I don't see any difference between your position and position of the Commentaries.

I respect people who follow the Commentaries.

Metta, Dmytro
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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:14 am

Greetings Individual, all

An exposition, from Nanananda's 3rd Nibbana sermon which sums up my preference for a non-time-delineated model...

According to that accepted interpretation, presented by the venerable author of the Visuddhimagga, the first two links of the formula belong to the past, and the last two links belong to the future. The remaining eight links in the middle are taken to rep-resent the present.lxxxv[19] That means, we have here the three periods of time. So it is not - timeless.

And that is why they explained that the bodhisatta Vipassī did not see the first two links. Perhaps, the presumption is, that since these two links belong to the past, they can be seen only by the knowledge of the recollection of past lives. But on the other hand, the suttas tell us that even the stream-winner has a clear understanding of pañicca samuppāda: Ariyo c’assa ñāyo paññāya sudiññho hoti suppañivid-dho.lxxxvi[20] "By him the Noble Norm is well seen and well penetrated through with wisdom."

The ‘noble norm’ is none other than the law of dependent arising, and the stream-winner has seen it well, penetrated into it well with wisdom. The prefix su- implies the clarity of that vision. The question, then, is how a stream-winner, who has no knowledge of the recollection of past lives, can get this insight.
Whatever it may be, the accepted interpretation, as already mentioned, puts the first two links into the past. That is to say, ignorance and preparations are referred to the past. Birth, decay-and-death are referred to the future. The eight links in between are explained with reference to the present. Thus the formula is divided into three periods.

Not only that, in the attempt to interpret the formula as referring to three stages in the saüsāric journey of an individual, additional links had to be interposed to prop up the interpretation.lxxxvii[21] Ignorance, preparations, craving, grasping and becoming are regarded as the past causes. Depending on these past causes, consciousness, name-and-form, six sense-bases, contact and feeling are said to arise as results in the present. And again, with ignorance, preparations, craving, grasping and becoming as present causes, consciousness, name-and-form, six sense-bases, contact and feeling arise as results in the future.

This kind of interpretation is also advanced. But this interpretation in terms of pentads violates the interrelatedness between the twelve links in the formula. We have already drawn attention to the fact of interrelation between the two links in each pair. In fact, that itself has to be taken as the law of dependent arising. That is the basic principle itself: Because of one, the other arises. With its cessation, the other ceases. There is this mode of analysis, but then it is disrupted by the attempt to smuggle in additional links into the formula.

Furthermore, according to this accepted commentarial exegesis, even the term bhava, or becoming, is given a twofold interpretation. As kamma-process-becoming and rebirth-process-becoming. In the context upādānapaccaya bhavo, dependent on grasping is becoming, it is explained as rebirth-process-becoming, while in the case of the other context, bhavapaccaya jāti, dependent on becoming is birth, it is taken to mean kamma-process-becoming. So the same term is explained in two ways. Similarly, the term jāti, which generally means birth, is said to imply rebirth in the context of the formula of dependent arising.

There are many such weak points in the accepted interpretation. Quite a number of authoritative modern scholars have pointed this out. Now all these short-comings could be side-tracked, if we grant the fact, as already mentioned, that the secret of the entire samsāric vortex is traceable to the two links consciousness and name-and-form. As a matter of fact, the purpose of the formula of dependent arising is to show the way of arising and cessation of the entire mass of suffering, and not to illustrate three stages in the samsaric journey of an individual.


Source: http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... rmon_8.htm

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:57 pm

Greetings,

Just a quick note to let you know I've updated this model today... it can be found on the first post of this topic.

Feel free to critique.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby Fede » Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:14 pm

:jumping: :jumping:

And here's me, steadily ploughing my way through the thread to watch for 'the latest model'.....!
I get to the bottom and guess what?

It's Groundhog day!!

Ok, back to square one...Ta muchly, Retro....!
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby ground » Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:20 am

Thank you. Very helpful. Might enable one to skip commentarial literature.
Anyway, putting your reference to suttas aside, have there been contemporary commentators of this model that inspired you most?

Kind regards
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Re: Visual: Non-time-delineated model of Dependent Origination

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:29 am

Greetings TMingyur,

TMingyur wrote:Anyway, putting your reference to suttas aside, have there been contemporary commentators of this model that inspired you most?


Venerables Nanananda, Buddhadasa, Payutto and Nanavira have probably been the most influential, but there are indeed others who come to mind like Patrick Kearney, Ajahn Sumedho, Christina Feldman, fellow online Buddhists etc.

I certainly don't claim to understand Dependent Origination entirely myself and know that I won't unless I attain stream-entry... but I think the Buddha's teaching on this subject is worth a lot of investigation. I recommend specifically focusing on any aspects of the teaching which seem wrong, inconsistent or unnatural when viewed at face value. That's why I value critique on this framework and hope we can all benefit through some of the challenges it raises.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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