Spiny Norman wrote: mikenz66 wrote:
Yes, see: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one objectifies. Based on what a person objectifies, the perceptions & categories of objectification assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future forms cognizable via the eye.
Good quote, though from an experiential point of view I still struggle with the order here, ie perception following feeling. It feels
more like the perception happens first, followed by a feeling based on that perception. So for example if I have a pleasant mental feeling associated with looking at the sea, doesn't the perception of "sea" come first? Or to put it another way, how can a feeling arise from a sense-object if there is no initial recognition of that sense-object?
Unfortunately the suttas don't say much about what perception ( sanna ) actually involves, beyond the example of say recognising a colour.
Those are good questions, Spiny. I also had them for quite a long time. There are some good answers here already, but I'll add one more.
Here's the answer I found: The phenomenon that you are describing is entering the emotional stage (saṅkhāra
), where you feel big or small emotions after perceiving an object incorrectly. For example, perceiving danger were there is none, will generate fear. Or, from your example, perceiving the sea as beautiful, will generate a pleasant mental feeling.
On the other hand, the vedanā
is instantaneous from contact, you don't even need to recognize (That's why in the suttas
it is mentioned a lot of times as [organ]samphassajā vedanā
). If you have your eyes functioning, there is a world around you & are conscious of sight, you are feeling something through the eyes. For example, if you enter a room with very bright light after you've been in a dark place, your eyes will hurt. Or, if you enter a room with loud noise after being in a silent space, it will hurt your ears. Or the inverse, if you enter a quiet space after being in a room with loud noise, you'll feel relief.
You don't even need to recognize the sound. But when you recognize the loud noise as unpleasant, then it can generate aversive saṅkhāras
A good way to understand this distinction from the suttas
is that: vedanā
. In other words, the emotion depends on the personal perception (attasaññā
) of the object
, the feeling depends on the impersonal event of being conscious through the organ
. If the perception is impersonal (anattasaññā
), the emotion doesn't arise.
I hope this helps with that distinction.