The value in learning about other traditions

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Kasina
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Re: The value in learning about other traditions

Post by Kasina »

It seems like the doctrine of emptiness and many of the Buddha's teachings on compassion are really downplayed in Theravada. Dhammika really points out the latter in "Broken Buddha", and Nagarjuna and Nanananda's works are great for reviving emptiness in the Theravadin mindset.

That and there are definitely some really good meditators out there in Mahayana and Vajrayana circles.

Also all the gross-out dead body stuff is quite absent in the other two schools... :?
"This world completely lacks essence;
It trembles in all directions.
I longed to find myself a place
Unscathed — but I could not see it."


Sn 4.15 PTS: Sn 935-951 "Attadanda Sutta: Arming Oneself"

"You will be required to do wrong no matter where you go... This is the curse at work, the curse that feeds on all life..."

Wilbur Mercer in Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?
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Mkoll
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Re: The value in learning about other traditions

Post by Mkoll »

Kasina wrote:It seems like the doctrine of emptiness and many of the Buddha's teachings on compassion are really downplayed in Theravada. Dhammika really points out the latter in "Broken Buddha", and Nagarjuna and Nanananda's works are great for reviving emptiness in the Theravadin mindset.

That and there are definitely some really good meditators out there in Mahayana and Vajrayana circles.
IMC wrote:Emptiness in Theravada Buddhism

Through Tricycle Magazine someone asked Gil Fronsdal:

In the Mahayana schools, such as Zen, emptiness, or the realization of emptiness seems to be an important part of the path, less so in the Theravada tradition, am I mistaken? And having trained in both traditions how do you reconcile the two?

Gil’s response:

Emptiness is as important in the Theravada tradition as it is in the Mahayana. From the earliest times, Theravada Buddhism has viewed emptiness as one of the important doors to liberation. Two key Theravada sutras are devoted to emptiness: the Greater Discourse on Emptiness and the Lesser Discourse on Emptiness.

When I was practicing in Burma, I gave a copy of the Heart Sutra to my Theravada meditation teacher. Ignoring the opening and closing, he was happy with the emptiness teaching in the core of the text. He gave a profound dharma talk on the Heart Sutra, saying that this insight is what Vipassana practice aims at.

Over the centuries, emptiness came to have a range of meanings within Buddhism. The greatest change in meaning was in the Mahayana tradition where some quite diverse teachings on emptiness emerged. Even so, the great Indian philosophers of the Mahayana wrote that the standard understanding of emptiness within the Mahayana and within the earlier Buddhist traditions is the same. It is not emptiness which differentiates these traditions.

Though emptiness is important in the Theravada tradition, it is usually not taught as often as in the Mahayana. This might lead some to assume it is absent in the Theravada. One reason it is not taught as often is that emptiness is seen as a liberating insight rather then a philosophical view one needs to understand intellectually. Theravada’s gradual approach to awakening, includes extensive teachings on the functioning of the mind and the foundational practices that allow for the deep penetrative insight into emptiness. Emptiness is sometimes not taught until the student is ready for it.

Another reason Theravada contains fewer teachings on emptiness is that this is not always labeled “emptiness.” For example, Theravada will teach that all things are insubstantial and without essence without calling this an emptiness teaching, even though it is. The frequency with which the Mahayana talks about emptiness is probably matched by the frequency with which the Theravada teaches impermanence and not-self; in practice, both traditions are often pointing to the same thing in these teachings.

A final reason may be that the goal of Theravada practice is not emptiness. The goal is liberation. Emptiness is a means to liberation. While liberation comes with a deep understanding of emptiness, emptiness is secondary to Awakening.
Kasina wrote:Also all the gross-out dead body stuff is quite absent in the other two schools... :?
I'm not sure if that's true.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Dhammanando
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Re: The value in learning about other traditions

Post by Dhammanando »

Mkoll wrote:
Kasina wrote:Also all the gross-out dead body stuff is quite absent in the other two schools... :?
I'm not sure if that's true.
It isn't true. For example, in Shantideva's Bodhicaryavatara and its commentaries, the "gross-out dead body stuff" is so strong that even Phra Khantipālo (who had a pronounced enthusiasm for this sort of thing) felt compelled to dismiss it as "certainly sick" in his Bag of Bones booklet.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Aloka
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Re: The value in learning about other traditions

Post by Aloka »

Bakmoon wrote: Oh, definitely in terms of practice, vajrayana is radically different and I'm not trying to downplay that. I'm mainly just pointing this out because if you don't know what the goal of tantric practice is, it's very easy to look at all the tantric deities and the subtle energy practices and think to yourself "Boy, this kind of stuff sure doesn't seem very Buddhist to me! How could any of this tie in with the teachings of the historical Buddha?"
Those doubts happened to me after 20 years of being involved with Vajrayana and realising that I knew hardly anything about the historical Buddha's teachings.

If you are reading various resources, & interacting with people like Malcolm/Namdrol in an internet forum, that's one thing - but actually getting involved in the outside world over a period of time is quite different. I don't think Vajrayana's great emphasis on "Guru devotion" is understood until one actually practices it either. I remember there was one text which said one shouldn't even step on the guru's shadow amongst other things..

Here's something about guru devotion from Lama Yeshe Wisdom Archive:

Guru Devotion

The following is a teaching given by Rinpoche to a small group of students at Kopan Monastery in Nepal.

Guru devotion is the quickest way to collect the most extensive merit, the means to achieve enlightenment. Of course, the main thing is having the right motivation, bodhicitta, but having a pure mind of guru devotion, with no negative mind arising toward the guru – which is very heavy negative karma – is also very important.

A negative attitude, such as a thought of giving up respect, even just thinking, “What is the use of this teaching?” creates negative karma; one breaks the samaya vows. A kind of pollution comes, and whatever you offer becomes negative and can invite sickness or obstacles. So, I think, the most important thing is keeping samaya, not doing any wrong thing, not letting heresy arise, having negative thoughts, or losing faith. Lost faith is very heavy. Also, it is important not to break the root Pratimoksha vows.

So much emphasis is placed on guru devotion because, with very strong guru devotion, there is no hardship in following the guru’s advice; it becomes so easy to follow any advice given. If one sees Buddha, one feels incredible happiness, joy, and pleasure in this life. We were trying the other day to find an example of happiness. I said “going to the beach” or “drinking nectar”; you said “having sex,” remember? We were looking for an example of something that is most exciting and joyful for ordinary beings.

Here, Dharma practice offers the most exciting, highest happiness there is: following advice, finding no hardship at all in whatever advice the guru gives, even things that generally seem hard in the view of other people, even impossible. That itself is guru devotion.

Then, seeing your guru as Buddha, without any question, is incredible, the peak, the highest enjoyment. Then, nothing is difficult to accept. But if the devotion is not strong, if it is wishy-washy, if there’s no real devotion, only a little, and it's artificial, from the lips, but not in the heart, or it's very weak like when a fire has been burning a long time and there are only one or two sparks left, it can disappear very easily. That is what happens to devotion – one or two sparks are left and then the fire is gone. Then it's very difficult to follow advice, even if the advice is simple, and not a great sacrifice. Even very small things become hard. The mind doesn’t want to do it.

With that attitude one cannot obtain advice. There is no thought that it is precious and that "this is a task for me," that this is a dependant arising, that this advice is purification of negative karma accumulated from beginningless rebirths up to now and is collecting the most extensive merit. We don’t see it as a path to achieve enlightenment, that the advice brings you to enlightenment. One doesn’t see that every single piece of advice that is given, and whatever service one does, is the most powerful, best method to fulfill all your wishes.

From among all your wishes, the highest, most important wish is to achieve enlightenment for sentient beings, and this is the best, most powerful cause to be able to enlighten so many sentient beings and do perfect work for them. The proof of the power of guru devotion is found in many stories. The root of guru devotion, seeing the guru as Buddha, grows into a stable realization, through advice obtained from correctly devoting oneself to the virtuous friend in thought and action.

http://www.lamayeshe.com/?sect=article&id=340
Last edited by Aloka on Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:14 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Aloka
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Re: The value in learning about other traditions

Post by Aloka »

Dhammanando wrote:
It isn't true. For example, in Shantideva's Bodhicaryavatara and its commentaries, the "gross-out dead body stuff" is so strong that even Phra Khantipālo (who had a pronounced enthusiasm for this sort of thing) felt compelled to dismiss it as "certainly sick" in his Bag of Bones booklet.
Its also worth noting that as well as the "gross-out dead body stuff" there's this and a lot more in Ch. VIII:
58.
Since I do not wish to touch
A place that is smeared with excrement,
Then why do I wish to touch the body
From which that (excrement) arose?

59.
If I am not attached to what is unclean,
Why do I copulate with the lower parts of
others' bodies
Which arise from the unclean field (of a
womb)
And are produced by the seeds within it?

60.
I have no wish for a small dirty maggot
Which has come from a pile of filth,
So why do I desire this body which by nature
is grossly unclean,
For it too was produced by filth?

61.
Not only do I not disparage
The uncleanliness of my own body,
But because of an obsession for what is
unclean
I desire other bags of filth as well.

http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhis ... 20Life.pdf
:anjali:
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Kasina
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Re: The value in learning about other traditions

Post by Kasina »

I stand corrected. I don't really see it all that necessary for cultivating detachment to the body, but it might help some people.

:anjali:
"This world completely lacks essence;
It trembles in all directions.
I longed to find myself a place
Unscathed — but I could not see it."


Sn 4.15 PTS: Sn 935-951 "Attadanda Sutta: Arming Oneself"

"You will be required to do wrong no matter where you go... This is the curse at work, the curse that feeds on all life..."

Wilbur Mercer in Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?
Bakmoon
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Re: The value in learning about other traditions

Post by Bakmoon »

Kasina wrote:I stand corrected. I don't really see it all that necessary for cultivating detachment to the body, but it might help some people.

:anjali:
:goodpost:

I've always thought of the Buddha's teachings as being rather like a pharmacy. You have all kinds of remedies, some practices such as the 5 precepts, right effort, and right mindfulness are there to benefit everybody at all times just like the multivitamin aisle. Some like ordination are good but aren't appropriate for all people at all times, like the cough syrup you only take when you have a cold. And then you have practices like the unattractive nature of the body and the corpse visualizations that are highly specific and powerful for dealing with lust, but are potentially dangerous, corresponding to the potent antibiotics. Using some of these practices when they are inappropriate can cause harm, as attested to in the Vesali Sutta in which many monks devoted themself to the contemplation of the body as unnatractive and killed themselves as a result.
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.
SarathW
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Re: The value in learning about other traditions

Post by SarathW »

Kasina wrote:I stand corrected. I don't really see it all that necessary for cultivating detachment to the body, but it might help some people.

:anjali:
The way I understand, without cultivating detachment to the body, you will not be able to attain Jhana.
:thinking:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Bakmoon
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Re: The value in learning about other traditions

Post by Bakmoon »

SarathW wrote:
Kasina wrote:I stand corrected. I don't really see it all that necessary for cultivating detachment to the body, but it might help some people.

:anjali:
The way I understand, without cultivating detachment to the body, you will not be able to attain Jhana.
:thinking:
I think Kasina was specifically talking about things like the Asubha meditation or the contemplation of corpses. For most people those kinds of meditation are not necessary.
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.
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