On Nanananda's understanding of Nibbana...

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Spiny Norman
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Re: On Nanananda's understanding of Nibbana...

Post by Spiny Norman »

Kasina wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
Kasina wrote: How should I interpret "cessation of existence"?
My assumption is that it's the cessation of a particular mode of existence, the mode based on clinging and identifying with the aggregates, the cessation of the taints and the cessation of "I am".
This is how I'm tempted to understand it, but I don't wan't to fall into all the non-dualism new agey hooplah again... Then again, with the cessation of the conceit "am" there couldn't even be the concept of a universal self either.
There are different interpretations, but generally I think "bhava" translates better as "becoming" than "existence". So for "bhavanirodha" cessation of becoming would be more intelligible.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Kasina
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Re: On Nanananda's understanding of Nibbana...

Post by Kasina »

Spiny Norman wrote:
There are different interpretations, but generally I think "bhava" translates better as "becoming" than "existence". So for "bhavanirodha" cessation of becoming would be more intelligible.
Good point, but could you not say that becoming is existence? Maybe semantics are bigger problem than anything else here :tongue:
"This world completely lacks essence;
It trembles in all directions.
I longed to find myself a place
Unscathed — but I could not see it."


Sn 4.15 PTS: Sn 935-951 "Attadanda Sutta: Arming Oneself"

"You will be required to do wrong no matter where you go... This is the curse at work, the curse that feeds on all life..."

Wilbur Mercer in Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?
SarathW
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Re: On Nanananda's understanding of Nibbana...

Post by SarathW »

There are some good answers already.
Why don't we take a step back and try to examine whether the Arahant exist before his death?
We all can attain Arahantship in this very life. So this is we all can experience ourselves.
:thinking:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Kasina
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Re: On Nanananda's understanding of Nibbana...

Post by Kasina »

SarathW wrote:There are some good answers already.
Why don't we take a step back and try to examine whether the Arahant exist before his death?
We all can attain Arahantship in this very life. So this is we all can experience ourselves.
:thinking:
Sorry for the confusion, but that's primarily what I meant.
"This world completely lacks essence;
It trembles in all directions.
I longed to find myself a place
Unscathed — but I could not see it."


Sn 4.15 PTS: Sn 935-951 "Attadanda Sutta: Arming Oneself"

"You will be required to do wrong no matter where you go... This is the curse at work, the curse that feeds on all life..."

Wilbur Mercer in Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?
Spiny Norman
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Re: On Nanananda's understanding of Nibbana...

Post by Spiny Norman »

Kasina wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
There are different interpretations, but generally I think "bhava" translates better as "becoming" than "existence". So for "bhavanirodha" cessation of becoming would be more intelligible.
Good point, but could you not say that becoming is existence? Maybe semantics are bigger problem than anything else here :tongue:
I would say that becoming is a mode of existence. Talking about the cessation of existence gives the impression of the cessation of everything, which doesn't seem to work here.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Kasina
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Re: On Nanananda's understanding of Nibbana...

Post by Kasina »

Spiny Norman wrote:
Kasina wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
There are different interpretations, but generally I think "bhava" translates better as "becoming" than "existence". So for "bhavanirodha" cessation of becoming would be more intelligible.
Good point, but could you not say that becoming is existence? Maybe semantics are bigger problem than anything else here :tongue:
I would say that becoming is a mode of existence. Talking about the cessation of existence gives the impression of the cessation of everything, which doesn't seem to work here.
Actually, I found this in his (Nanananda's) insight meditation manual/sermon:

Seeing Through p.9
This existence or 'bhava' is actually a way of measuring. Existence involves measuring. In order to measure, one has to have two pegs and this subject-object relationship fulfills this requirement. There is one who grasps and an object grasped. It is after driving these two pegs 'down-to-earth', so to say, that one starts measuring what is called 'existence' or 'bhava'. So, it is between these two pegs that 'existence' exists.
http://www.seeingthroughthenet.net/file ... hrough.pdf

This definitely lends strength to your point.

:anjali:
"This world completely lacks essence;
It trembles in all directions.
I longed to find myself a place
Unscathed — but I could not see it."


Sn 4.15 PTS: Sn 935-951 "Attadanda Sutta: Arming Oneself"

"You will be required to do wrong no matter where you go... This is the curse at work, the curse that feeds on all life..."

Wilbur Mercer in Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?
SarathW
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Re: On Nanananda's understanding of Nibbana...

Post by SarathW »

Kasina wrote:
SarathW wrote:There are some good answers already.
Why don't we take a step back and try to examine whether the Arahant exist before his death?
We all can attain Arahantship in this very life. So this is we all can experience ourselves.
:thinking:
Sorry for the confusion, but that's primarily what I meant.
A person who is inside a box can ask "Am I inside or out side"
He ask this question as he has limited his attention to the box. (or he identify himself with the box)
If he discard (destroy) the box, he may not ask this question.
Because the question is not relevant any more.

The same way we ask whether we exist or not as we identify ourselves with the five aggregates.
Once we transcend from the five aggregate (not identified) this question become irrelevant.

Instead of existence and non-existence Buddha pointed us toward Dependent Origination.
:thinking:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Kasina
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Re: On Nanananda's understanding of Nibbana...

Post by Kasina »

SarathW wrote:
Kasina wrote:
SarathW wrote:There are some good answers already.
Why don't we take a step back and try to examine whether the Arahant exist before his death?
We all can attain Arahantship in this very life. So this is we all can experience ourselves.
:thinking:
Sorry for the confusion, but that's primarily what I meant.
A person who is inside a box can ask "Am I inside or out side"
He ask this question as he has limited his attention to the box. (or he identify himself with the box)
If he discard (destroy) the box, he may not ask this question.
Because the question is not relevant any more.

The same way we ask whether we exist or not as we identify ourselves with the five aggregates.
Once we transcend from the five aggregate (not identified) this question become irrelevant.

Instead of existence and non-existence Buddha pointed us toward Dependent Origination.
:thinking:
I agree.
"This world completely lacks essence;
It trembles in all directions.
I longed to find myself a place
Unscathed — but I could not see it."


Sn 4.15 PTS: Sn 935-951 "Attadanda Sutta: Arming Oneself"

"You will be required to do wrong no matter where you go... This is the curse at work, the curse that feeds on all life..."

Wilbur Mercer in Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?
SarathW
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: On Nanananda's understanding of Nibbana...

Post by SarathW »

The following link may be some help.

"If anyone were to say with regard to a monk whose mind is thus released that 'The Tathagata exists after death,' is his view, that would be mistaken; that 'The Tathagata does not exist after death'... that 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death'... that 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death' is his view, that would be mistaken. Why? Having directly known the extent of designation and the extent of the objects of designation, the extent of expression and the extent of the objects of expression, the extent of description and the extent of the objects of description, the extent of discernment and the extent of the objects of discernment, the extent to which the cycle revolves: Having directly known that, the monk is released. [To say that,] 'The monk released, having directly known that, does not see, does not know is his opinion,' that would be mistaken


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... html#fnt-1
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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