Person with samatha vs Arhat's natural state

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Alex123
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Person with samatha vs Arhat's natural state

Post by Alex123 »

Hello all,


I wonder about this: Except for latent defilements and temporal nature of samatha, what is the difference at the moment when worldling's 5 hindrances are temporary gone vs Arhat's normal state?



With best wishes,

Alex
daverupa
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Re: Person with samatha vs Arhat's natural state

Post by daverupa »

So, except for the differences, what are the differences?

Otherwise you're going to be speculating about the individual experience of the arahant, which is shaky ground.

:shrug:
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    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

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Dhammanando
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Re: Person with samatha vs Arhat's natural state

Post by Dhammanando »

Alex123 wrote:I wonder about this: Except for latent defilements and temporal nature of samatha, what is the difference at the moment when worldling's 5 hindrances are temporary gone vs Arhat's normal state?
It's like the difference between the wintertime absence of blooms on a rhododendron and the absence at all times of blooms on a lepidodendron. The former is an absence of something that might be present and will again become so, but happens not to be present now, while the latter is an absence of something that can never be present again, since lepidodendrons are extinct.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
pegembara
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Re: Person with samatha vs Arhat's natural state

Post by pegembara »

One state is temporary subject to arising and passing and the other is permanent ie. occurs at a deeper level("supramundane"). One knows and sees dependent origination and the other not necessarily so but actual experience ?similar.
"This is peace, this is exquisite — the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving, dispassion, cessation, Unbinding."

— MN 64
"Monks, the ending of the effluents is for one who knows & sees, I tell you, not for one who does not know & does not see. For one who knows what & sees what is there the ending of effluents? 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is perception, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their disappearance. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' The ending of the effluents is for one who knows in this way & sees in this way.

— SN 12.23
Dhammapada Verse 373. He Who Is Calm Experiences Transcendental Joy

The bhikkhu gone to a lonely place
who is of peaceful heart
in-sees Dhamma rightly,
knows all-surpassing joy.

Verse 374. He Is Happy Who Reflects On Rise And Fall

Whenever one reflects
on aggregates’ arise and fall
one rapture gains and joy.
‘Tis Deathless for Those-who-know.
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Re: Person with samatha vs Arhat's natural state

Post by chownah »

There is no difference at the moment. Notice that people want to talk about the temporary nature etc......but the temporary nature does not apply when considering at the moment.
chownah
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Re: Person with samatha vs Arhat's natural state

Post by theend »

Alex123 wrote:I wonder about this: Except for latent defilements and temporal nature of samatha, what is the difference at the moment when worldling's 5 hindrances are temporary gone vs Arhat's normal state?
In case of the worlding there is still appropriation of that experience ("my", "I"). There is no temporary arahat-like state for the worlding, not even for one moment.
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Re: Person with samatha vs Arhat's natural state

Post by Dhammanando »

chownah wrote:There is no difference at the moment. Notice that people want to talk about the temporary nature etc......but the temporary nature does not apply when considering at the moment.
If we are taking at the moment in its most strictly literal abhidhammic sense, then there may or may not be a difference between a kilesa-free moment in a worldling and the same in an arahant. For example, an arising of eye-consciousness, or any of the other fivefold sensory consciousnesses, would be exactly the same in a wordling and an arahant. On the other hand, a moment of compassion would be different in the two persons. In the worldling the compassion would arise in a kamma-generating kusala citta, while in an arahant it would be in an inoperative (i.e., non-kamma-generating) kiriyā citta.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Re: Person with samatha vs Arhat's natural state

Post by Spiny Norman »

Alex123 wrote:Hello all,
I wonder about this: Except for latent defilements and temporal nature of samatha, what is the difference at the moment when worldling's 5 hindrances are temporary gone vs Arhat's normal state?
The worldling won't have developed the 7 factors of enlightenment to fruition. So maybe it's the temporary absence of unwholesome v. the lasting presence of wholesome?
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chownah
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Re: Person with samatha vs Arhat's natural state

Post by chownah »

Dhammanando wrote:
chownah wrote:There is no difference at the moment. Notice that people want to talk about the temporary nature etc......but the temporary nature does not apply when considering at the moment.
If we are taking at the moment in its most strictly literal abhidhammic sense, then there may or may not be a difference between a kilesa-free moment in a worldling and the same in an arahant. For example, an arising of eye-consciousness, or any of the other fivefold sensory consciousnesses, would be exactly the same in a wordling and an arahant. On the other hand, a moment of compassion would be different in the two persons. In the worldling the compassion would arise in a kamma-generating kusala citta, while in an arahant it would be in an inoperative (i.e., non-kamma-generating) kiriyā citta.
If we are talking at the moment and we consider a worldling with the arising of eye consciousness and an arahant with the arising of ear consciousness then I guess that there would be a difference also. And pursuing this line of reasoning futher it would seem that if a worldling with the color red arising in eye contact and an arahant with the color blue arising in eye contact at the same moment then there would be a difference also. Going even further in this line of reasoning we might want to consider if it is actually possible for any two moments anywhere and in any being (even the same being) to be without differences. For me it is difficult to conceive of two moments which are the same in every minute detail but I really do not think that this is what the OP is asking. I'm also wondering if your comparison of compassion in the worldling and the arahant is simply a demonstration that it is possible for two moments to be different (although I admit that in this case it is in a way that many would consider fundamental or at least important) and I'm wondering if this is what the OP is really wanting to ask about....maybe it is...maybe not....I don't know.
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Alex123
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Re: Person with samatha vs Arhat's natural state

Post by Alex123 »

chownah wrote: If we are talking at the moment and we consider a worldling with the arising of eye consciousness and an arahant with the arising of ear consciousness then I guess that there would be a difference also.
Lets compare apples to apples. Is there a difference between, say, eye-consciousness (cakkhu-viññāṇa) of worldling and Arhat?

Same with, lets say, kāya-vedāna. Is it the same?


In other words, do Arhats have some sort of transcendent otherworldly cognition? Or is it just like normal person minus kilesas?
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