tangled up in dukkha, breaking free

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christopher:::
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tangled up in dukkha, breaking free

Post by christopher::: »

Kind of as opposed to the "what's wrong with masterbation" discussion, perhaps it would be helpful to share methods and insights related to the cessation of clinging and desire- liberation from pleasures that attract us, breaking free....

What strategies and teachings have been most helpful, in your experience? How best to apply the Buddha's advice, in the modern world? What cravings and temptations have been most difficult for you to keep a distance from or untangle?

How does our practice help us to break free? In my own experience i've noticed that the calmer and more relaxed my mind is, the easier it is to simply watch desires arise and pass away. If I'm thinking too much, feeling anxious or excited, even a little bit, desires will rise up, my mind starts looking around for a bite of this, some "good" music or other "pleasurable" distractions.

What have you noticed, in your own experience?

:smile:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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tiltbillings
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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free

Post by tiltbillings »

Just an aside.
"what's wrong with masterbation"
You need to use your spelling checker.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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retrofuturist
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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Chris:::,

Sense restraint, built upon a sound practice of sila.

See:

Right Restraint - Ajahn Chah
http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Right_Restraint.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SN 35.127: Bharadvaja Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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christopher:::
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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free

Post by christopher::: »

tiltbillings wrote:Just an aside.
"what's wrong with masterbation"
You need to use your spelling checker.
Thanks, Tilt. It's one of those words i kinda try to get out and then away from quickly...
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Chris:::,

Sense restraint, built upon a sound practice of sila.

See:

Right Restraint - Ajahn Chah
http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Right_Restraint.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SN 35.127: Bharadvaja Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
Thank you Retro. The second link was excellent! I'll get back to you concerning the first.

:group:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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tiltbillings
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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free

Post by tiltbillings »

christopher::: wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Just an aside.
"what's wrong with masterbation"
You need to use your spelling checker.
Thanks, Tilt. It's one of those words i kinda try to get out and then away from quickly...

Sure; otherwise something might stick to you.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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christopher:::
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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free

Post by christopher::: »

tiltbillings wrote:
Sure; otherwise something might stick to you.
Yessssssssss........

BTW, concerning your sig line:
"This being is bound to samsara, karma is his means for going beyond."
SN I, 38.
How do you view the importance of karma, in relation to the topic here?

It seems to me right effort, right restraint are most essential. What is the role of karma?

:namaste:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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tiltbillings
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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free

Post by tiltbillings »

christopher::: wrote:What is the role of karma?
So that we are on the same page: what is kamma?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free

Post by Cittasanto »

at the moment I am trying to practice restraint in speach, only saying what I think is necessary or of some value (even if it seams silly :tongue: ), and trying to not engage in agressive discussions, which can be a problem particularly on the net.

I am also trying to be honest with myself more, reflecting on what personal narative I am building and how true it is to me as a person conventually, and what my goal is.

for me it has been a trying few weeks and one I am sure will shape the future in a way I may not like when I get there, there has been anger, depression, drink, lack of heedfulness and mindfulness and other unworthy actions in the last few weeks which have not been useful to my circumstances.
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But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free

Post by pink_trike »

Hi Christopher:::

liberation from pleasures


Imo, "liberation from pleasures" isn't a goal of Dharma practice...rather, we aspire to liberation from the reactive workings of the mind in relationship to pleasures.

The practices of restraint and good conduct, as Retro recommends, are enormously valuable in order to manage and de-energize reactive impulse and behavior that arises from attachment, which we do in order to aid in calming and quieting the mind/senses so that we create the conditions of mind that enable us to recognize the true nature of phenomenal appearances and experiences, including pleasure.

It's a matter of emphasis...we don't want to get stuck in behavior management. For example: in AA (Alcoholics Anonymous) behavior management is a critically important step, but once the behavior is restrained then the rest of the work has to take place to avoid becoming what is known as a "dry drunk". There's a lot of of "dry pleasurist" practitioners in Buddhism. Restraining behavior by itself isn't enough and it isn't the goal...it is a practice that forwards the ultimate goal of Dharma practice, and the ultimate liberation.

Pleasure happens, we can't control that. We're biologically programmed to experience pleasure for good reasons. It's how we perceive and relate to pleasure that's the goal of the Dharma. Once we see pleasure for what it is (aided by restraint, good conduct, and concentrative observation) then we use it skillfully, beneficially. Ultimately, pleasure should be regarded as medicine - not to be avoided and not used as a crutch. The same goes for restraint....it should be regarded and used as if medicine, not as a crutch.

[readers: since this is a Theravada room, I draw your attention to the disclaimer in my signature]
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
pink_trike wrote:[readers: since this is a Theravada room, I draw your attention to the disclaimer in my signature]
FWIW, none of that seemed particularly controversial to me.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free

Post by pink_trike »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
pink_trike wrote:[readers: since this is a Theravada room, I draw your attention to the disclaimer in my signature]
FWIW, none of that seemed particularly controversial to me.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Not controversial, but perhaps not entirely consistent with traditional Theravada.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Ben
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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free

Post by Ben »

Relax Geoff!
You're welcome here.
I actually felt that what you said was fairly consistent with Theravada.
In fact, on your point of 'freedom from pleasure' not being part of the goal, I think you are right.
The Buddha defined vedana by its salient characteristic of either pleasurable, painful or neutral (neither pleasurable nor painful).
Kind regards

Ben
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christopher:::
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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free

Post by christopher::: »

Very useful observations, pink trike (Jeff).
tiltbillings wrote:
christopher::: wrote:What is the role of karma?
So that we are on the same page: what is kamma?
LOL, i don't know the context of the quote in your sig, Tilt, so to be on the same page i'd have to wait and hear how you think of it, and how its meant in that quotation...
Manapa wrote:at the moment I am trying to practice restraint in speach, only saying what I think is necessary or of some value (even if it seams silly :tongue: ), and trying to not engage in agressive discussions, which can be a problem particularly on the net.

I am also trying to be honest with myself more, reflecting on what personal narative I am building and how true it is to me as a person conventually, and what my goal is.

for me it has been a trying few weeks and one I am sure will shape the future in a way I may not like when I get there, there has been anger, depression, drink, lack of heedfulness and mindfulness and other unworthy actions in the last few weeks which have not been useful to my circumstances.
Sounds like its been a tough few weeks for you, Manapa. Sorry to hear that. Do you feel there is a relationship between your efforts to restrain your speech, your self reflection, and then the anger, depression and lack of heedfulness you are experiencing?

This is something i've heard from others and have also experienced. You start to make efforts at changing your behavior, at self-restraint, and feel like crap.

Do you find any of pink trike's ideas helpful?
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free

Post by tiltbillings »

christopher::: wrote:Very useful observations, pink trike (Jeff).
tiltbillings wrote:
christopher::: wrote:What is the role of karma?
So that we are on the same page: what is kamma?
LOL, i don't know the context of the quote in your sig, Tilt, so to be on the same page i'd have to wait and hear how you think of it, and how its meant in that quotation...
Then you'll have to wait. You have a tendency put the heavy lifting answering questions on others here. The question is straightforward. It does not require a thesis be written. How do you understand what kamma is? It is the start of a dialogue if, you want such. If not, then not.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free

Post by Fede »

I read a quotation which, although it could be possibly torn about a bit, made enormous sense, and its impact was huge to me:

"karma means that basically, you don't get away with anything. And it all counts".

Since then, I have learnt, understood and accepted for myself, that kamma is a result of a volitional, and deliberate action (be it mental, verbal or physical).

All conditions are Mind-Wrought.
Watch the thinking.
I mean, really watch it.
the rest will follow accordingly.....

What am I rambling on for?

Ok, I'm done.
Back to you guys.....

:popcorn:

:namaste:
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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