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Dhamma Wheel • View topic - where to go from here?

where to go from here?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: where to go from here?

Postby Ben » Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:46 am

Again, I say they are different. Love, as it is 'practiced' (for want of a better word), or experienced by the vast majority of humanity is, as I said, a sankhara. Its a combination of thoughts, sensations, mind-states that coalesce to give the impression of the state of 'love'. The dhammas that constitute love are not necessarily wholesome, including lust, attachment and aversion (of love's ending). Love might feel good, but that doesn't mean that it is necessarily wholesome or good. On the other hand, metta is not characterised by lust, attachment or aversion and it can only arise when those mental factors are not present. Its a different kettle of fish, Christopher. In fact I contend its not even on the same spectrum.
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Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: where to go from here?

Postby christopher::: » Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:57 am

Hi Ben. I don't disagree about the differences, just tend to think the brahama viharas are practiced rather widely around the world... mothers, fathers and their kids, grandkids and grandparents, long married couples, solid friendships, positive teacher/student situations, all good relationships.

If it's a good relationship, if there is more happiness in your relations then pain, that's a sign something right is going on...

Just my personal opinion- related though to something rather wise that you said a little while back, lol...

:namaste:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: where to go from here?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:13 am

christopher::: wrote:Hi Ben. I don't disagree about the differences, just tend to think the brahama viharas are practiced rather widely around the world... mothers, fathers and their kids, grandkids and grandparents, long married couples, solid friendships, positive teacher/student situations, all good relationships.


Maybe, but maybe not as much as you optimistically think.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: where to go from here?

Postby Individual » Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:16 am

Manapa wrote:ok so as some of you may know I was seeking to become a bhikkhu a while ago, but chose to get into a relationship with someone I fell inlove with and have been living with for over a year now.
give me some suggestions of places to continue my "Quest" as she no longer want to be with me for what ever reason, and I don't really want to be here in this situation with nowhere else to go locally to live while I look.

EDIT - forgot to mention would be better if the place was in the UK

Be a lay teacher in the west... There's lots of those and certainly some groups you could help volunteer for.
The best things in life aren't things.

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Re: where to go from here?

Postby christopher::: » Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:43 am

tiltbillings wrote:
christopher::: wrote:Hi Ben. I don't disagree about the differences, just tend to think the brahama viharas are practiced rather widely around the world... mothers, fathers and their kids, grandkids and grandparents, long married couples, solid friendships, positive teacher/student situations, all good relationships.


Maybe, but maybe not as much as you optimistically think.


Maybe not, indeed. Impossible to really know, for sure.

:group:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: where to go from here?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:59 am

christopher::: wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
christopher::: wrote:Hi Ben. I don't disagree about the differences, just tend to think the brahama viharas are practiced rather widely around the world... mothers, fathers and their kids, grandkids and grandparents, long married couples, solid friendships, positive teacher/student situations, all good relationships.


Maybe, but maybe not as much as you optimistically think.


Maybe not, indeed. Impossible to really know, for sure.


If that is the case, then you really cannot claim what you claimed.

The brahmaviharas are practiced in a particular context, understood in a particular context, which kind of shifts them a bit out of the ordinary. Certainly the love a parent for a child can be a basis for the practice of metta, but again a bit of a different context within which it is practiced and understood.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: where to go from here?

Postby christopher::: » Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:07 am

We're veering waaaay off topic, Tilt, concerning Manapa's future. And to say "i tend to think" is not a claim....
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: where to go from here?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:14 am

TheDhamma wrote:
Manapa wrote:This was going to be the last go! I had decided when this relationship started that if it didn't work out that there would be no more after and the worldly life would be put to rest, I was going to pursue this further and probably be living at a monestary now if it hadn't been for the relationship.


Okay in that case, start growing some hair, so at least there will be something for them to symbolically shave off. :tongue:


beard and all is back had to trim it the other day, doesn't take long.
but pink this isn't a rash decission, this was a decission taken a while ago (about 2 years+ ?) getting into a relationship was something that happened.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: where to go from here?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:32 am

Individual wrote:
Manapa wrote:ok so as some of you may know I was seeking to become a bhikkhu a while ago, but chose to get into a relationship with someone I fell inlove with and have been living with for over a year now.
give me some suggestions of places to continue my "Quest" as she no longer want to be with me for what ever reason, and I don't really want to be here in this situation with nowhere else to go locally to live while I look.

EDIT - forgot to mention would be better if the place was in the UK

Be a lay teacher in the west... There's lots of those and certainly some groups you could help volunteer for.

Good Idea, but I dont think that I am suitable to teach just yet
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: where to go from here?

Postby Individual » Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:10 am

Manapa wrote:
Individual wrote:
Manapa wrote:ok so as some of you may know I was seeking to become a bhikkhu a while ago, but chose to get into a relationship with someone I fell inlove with and have been living with for over a year now.
give me some suggestions of places to continue my "Quest" as she no longer want to be with me for what ever reason, and I don't really want to be here in this situation with nowhere else to go locally to live while I look.

EDIT - forgot to mention would be better if the place was in the UK

Be a lay teacher in the west... There's lots of those and certainly some groups you could help volunteer for.

Good Idea, but I dont think that I am suitable to teach just yet

So, what's the point of ordaining? A layperson can choose to live an ascetic lifestyle. Ordination is simply a formality or a means of developing a career in spiritual guidance. If you feel that exploring a romantic relationship would be a good thing in your life, go for it.

DN 21
When one knows of a feeling of joy, 'As I pursue this joy, unskillful mental qualities increase, and skillful mental qualities decline,' that sort of joy is not to be pursued. When one knows of a feeling of joy, 'As I pursue this joy, unskillful mental qualities decline, and skillful mental qualities increase,' that sort of joy is to be pursued.

And even if this is a relationship partially founded upon lust or attachment (which I think accounts for most, if not all romantic relationships), just remember the danger and the cost.
The best things in life aren't things.

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Re: where to go from here?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:51 am

Hi Individual,
I did say yet! :smile:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html
but my wish to become a monk is not to teach what I have not lived,
not to teach because I think I can,
not to be a donkey, shouting I am a cow,
but rather to live the holy life to the end.

The reason I chose to get into a relationship rather than further develop in a monastic setting was because I believed I may be able to have it both ways, as in progress on the path and have a companion to share my life with, this was a hope which turned out not to fit into reality, I fell in Love and the relationship ddidn't work out, and I didn't progress more than I would of not in a relationship, I don't think, and maybe less than I would of if I had kept my old life and practice (?).
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: where to go from here?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:59 am

Greetings Manapa,

You come across very sound of mind, and I'm very excited for you.

I believe this is called mudita!

:thumbsup:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: where to go from here?

Postby EOD » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:05 am

christopher::: wrote:[...] just tend to think the brahama viharas are practiced rather widely around the world... mothers, fathers and their kids, grandkids and grandparents, long married couples, solid friendships, positive teacher/student situations, all good relationships.

Just a short side note: The Buddha said (AN I.33) that most people go to the lower realms after dead. That seems to be incompatible with a "rather widely" practice of the brahmaviharas around the world.

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Re: where to go from here?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:37 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Manapa,

You come across very sound of mind, and I'm very excited for you.

I believe this is called mudita!

:thumbsup:

Metta,
Retro. :)


I don't feel it at the moment!
but I have to be practical, and realistic, I am still living with her until I find somewhere, and she says she still loves me and as I still love her it is just upsetting that we aren't together as a couple anymore.

on one hand I now have the oportunity to continue what I started a while ago :woohoo: , but sad and painful that this has come to an end! :cry: (litterally)
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: where to go from here?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:39 am

and incase anyone is wondering I am online as this seams to be a safe place, and more appropriate to focus my attention than the pain, no point getting myself angry about my situation, possibly better to move on emotionally atleast.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: where to go from here?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:40 am

It's the eight worldly winds, my friend.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: where to go from here?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:54 am

Yes, but atleast when they have calmed I will have better insight into
Mind section of satipattana sutta wrote:"When the mind is constricted, he discerns that the mind is constricted. When the mind is scattered, he discerns that the mind is scattered. When the mind is enlarged, he discerns that the mind is enlarged. When the mind is not enlarged, he discerns that the mind is not enlarged. When the mind is surpassed, he discerns that the mind is surpassed. When the mind is unsurpassed, he discerns that the mind is unsurpassed. When the mind is concentrated, he discerns that the mind is concentrated. When the mind is not concentrated, he discerns that the mind is not concentrated. When the mind is released, he discerns that the mind is released. When the mind is not released, he discerns that the mind is not released.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: where to go from here?

Postby Guy » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:58 am

Hi Manapa,

I wish you all the best on your spiritual quest!

With Metta,

Guy
Four types of letting go:

1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things

- Ajahn Brahm
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Re: where to go from here?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:06 pm

Thank-you guy,
I have just changed my signature to make it more applicable to me, rather than having quotes I found useful to remember.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: where to go from here?

Postby being5 » Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:46 pm

Hello All,

Manapa I'm sorry for the pain you are feeling. The subjects you raised are ones I am working with (or trying to) for some time now.

It seems to me that the nub of the problem is that until we have experienced anatta in our own being and so relinquished attachment we only know about it through having heard, read, understood and accepted intellectually that it is to be done.
That is to say, we want to be unattached but are not. We may see the causes of our suffering but still get caught in them.

My understanding is that the full experience of anatta and subsequent relinquishment of self comes with stream entry.
You won't be surprised to hear that I am not a stream enterer.

So, until then, how to proceed. Continue to practise - but many times, when in the grip of some upset such as you are experiencing, practising becomes almost impossible. One sits there and just gets in a lather trying to observe the lather one is in. This probably generates an even bigger lather for the future. How to sit with those excoriating feelings ripping through you.

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