where to go from here?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: where to go from here?

Postby being5 » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:06 pm

I wanted to add to my last post:

One sits there and just gets in a lather trying to observe the lather one is in. This probably generates an even bigger lather for the future. How to sit with those excoriating feelings ripping through you. And how to sit with them and how to live with them without aversion - without hoping they will go away.
It's possible that the desire to become a monastic, even though it preceded your relationship and it's breakup, is a desire to be free from the wheel, done with suffering. I'm pretty sure that is my motivation for practise.

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Re: where to go from here?

Postby BlackBird » Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:40 am

Individual wrote:So, what's the point of ordaining? A layperson can choose to live an ascetic lifestyle. Ordination is simply a formality or a means of developing a career in spiritual guidance. If you feel that exploring a romantic relationship would be a good thing in your life, go for it.


You speak boldly friend.
Ordination is not simply a formality.
Living as part of the ordained Sangha has many benefits, not the least being true friendship and close association with many wise people.

One might chose to live an ascetic lifestyle as a layman, but then it bears remembering that householder life is crowded, dusty and full of distractions. You're living in close proximity to a lot of people who make a lot of noise. An oppotunity to help develop morality and the brahma-viharas for sure, but ultimately not as good for pursuing the ultimate goal, which is the whole point of Buddhism - Let's not forget.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: where to go from here?

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:25 am

BlackBird wrote:
Individual wrote:So, what's the point of ordaining? A layperson can choose to live an ascetic lifestyle. Ordination is simply a formality or a means of developing a career in spiritual guidance. If you feel that exploring a romantic relationship would be a good thing in your life, go for it.


You speak boldly friend.
Ordination is not simply a formality.
Living as part of the ordained Sangha has many benefits, not the least being true friendship and close association with many wise people.


Also, to add to the above points, not all monks are required or expected to teach. That is a leftover expectation some Westerners might have when thinking of their former rabbis, priests, and ministers.

Monks are working on their salvation and also help others with chants, metta meditations, and pastoral duties. Not all monks give Dhamma talks and teach. They are still accumulating merit and helping others too.

I remember one time asking the abbot of a temple for permission for a particular monk at his temple to teach at a Dhamma center I was running. The abbot emphatically told me that this monk was "not ready" for teaching (even though he had been a monk for nearly 10 years).
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Re: where to go from here?

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:57 am

TheDhamma wrote:
I remember one time asking the abbot of a temple for permission for a particular monk at his temple to teach at a Dhamma center I was running. The abbot emphatically told me that this monk was "not ready" for teaching (even though he had been a monk for nearly 10 years).


exactly!
I remember Ajahn Sumadho wasn't 'trusted' to teach for a long time, I think it was 5 years!
The suttas also say that it is better to look after our own well being before trying to help others.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: where to go from here?

Postby imagemarie » Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:30 pm

The suttas also say that it is better to look after our own well being before trying to help others.


Apologies for my ignorance, but where specifically, please?

Thanks :smile:
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Re: where to go from here?

Postby EOD » Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:55 pm

imagemarie wrote:
The suttas also say that it is better to look after our own well being before trying to help others.


Apologies for my ignorance, but where specifically, please?


The following sutta (AN 4.95) seems to indicate that:

"Monks, these four types of individuals are to be found existing in the world. Which four? The one who practices neither for his/her own benefit nor for that of others. The one who practices for the benefit of others but not for his/her own. The one who practices for his/her own benefit but not for that of others. The one who practices for his/her own benefit and for that of others.

"Just as a firebrand from a funeral pyre — burning at both ends, covered with excrement in the middle — is used as fuel neither in a village nor in the wilderness: I tell you that this is a simile for the individual who practices neither for his/her own benefit nor for that of others. The individual who practices for the benefit of others but not for his/her own is the higher & more refined of these two. The individual who practices for his/her own benefit but not for that of others is the highest & most refined of these three. The individual who practices for his/her own benefit and for that of others is, of these four, the foremost, the chief, the most outstanding, the highest, & supreme. Just as from a cow comes milk; from milk, curds; from curds, butter; from butter, ghee; from ghee, the skimmings of ghee; and of these, the skimmings of ghee are reckoned the foremost — in the same way, of these four, the individual who practices for his/her own benefit and for that of others is the foremost, the chief, the most outstanding, the highest, & supreme.

"These are the four types of individuals to be found existing in the world." (AN 4.95)


Or in short (best first, worst last):

1. The individual who practices for his/her own benefit and for that of others
2. The individual who practices for his/her own benefit but not for that of others
3. The individual who practices for the benefit of others but not for his/her own
4. The individual who practices neither for his/her own benefit nor for that of others

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Re: where to go from here?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:09 pm

See also
SN 47.19 Sedaka Sutta: The Bamboo Acrobat
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .olen.html
Looking after oneself, one looks after others.
Looking after others, one looks after oneself.

Mike
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Re: where to go from here?

Postby being5 » Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:17 pm

Off topic but arising from the last two posts.

EOD wrote
"Monks, these four types of individuals are to be found existing in the world. Which four? The one who practices neither for his/her own benefit nor for that of others. The one who practices for the benefit of others but not for his/her own. The one who practices for his/her own benefit but not for that of others. The one who practices for his/her own benefit and for that of others."


What determines which type an individual is? Karma?
Can one change the type one is?
Should one aspire to change one's type (aim for the top, so to speak)?
Can all four types attain enlightenment and if "yes" what does it matter that there are four types?

thanks
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Re: where to go from here?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:43 pm

I know this is an interesting sideline but where else in Britain can one train?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: where to go from here?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:51 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Manapa,

It would be great if you could keep us informed on "the process" because it will doubtlessly be of interest, if not practical interest (!) for some members.

Wishing you all the best.

Metta,
Retro. :)


I have thought about this post and depending on the rules of wherever I end up, I may ask if I could do a sort of running commentary on my experiances from day one of the training! something like Bhikkhu Samahita (hope I spelt the name correctly sorry Bhante if not) it may be useful both for people here and those looking to ordain from elsewhere to have posts by someone who is doing the process and comming up against problems on the path???
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: where to go from here?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:49 pm

I would just like to thank everyone who wished me well, I have had a couple of bad days, and I am feeling better now, handed in a months notice at work today and going home for a few days before moving on!
I would especially like to thank one of the Bhante's here (but I will let them remain nameless :anjali: ) as I was incontact with them on PM over something else but they kindly put up with (what seams to me like about 6 rants on my situation but when I looked over my old PM posts it was one rant?? must of rewritten it several times :toilet: ) anyway thank you everyone but I am still interested in suggestions for places in the UK other than the Forest tradition which I already know the contacts for.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: where to go from here?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:53 am

Greetings Manapa,

How about the London Buddhist Vihara?

http://www.londonbuddhistvihara.org/

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: where to go from here?

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:14 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Manapa,

How about the London Buddhist Vihara?

http://www.londonbuddhistvihara.org/

Metta,
Retro. :)


Hi Retro,
You know I didn't even think of there? Thank-you
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: where to go from here?

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:26 am

I got a reply at 11am this morning and have confirmed it! Going to amaravati for a week with the possibility of extending it up to three weeks
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: where to go from here?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:42 am

Excellent news, Manapa!

:twothumbsup:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: where to go from here?

Postby Sanghamitta » Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:25 pm

Sadhu Manapa !

:anjali:
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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