Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

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christopher:::
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Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by christopher::: »

Tilt recently recommended a dhamma talk by Joseph Goldstein on the Five Hindrances. I'm about half way thru, and it is excellent. Then today I came across this dhamma talk- Degrees of Seeing by Ajahn Brahm, where he mentions the hindrances and the importance of jhana, in subduing them.

excerpt:
The Buddha explained that it is the five hindrances that distort perception and corrupt our thinking. He called the five hindrances the nutriment that feeds delusion (Anguttara Nikaya (AN) 10.61). The first hindrance, sensual desire, selects what we want to see, hear, sense, and cognize. It often embellishes the truth. It presents to our consciousness the product of wishful thinking. The second hindrance, ill will, is the negative impulse that blocks us from seeing, hearing, sensing, or cognizing what we don’t want to know. It blinds us to what is unpleasant, and to what is contrary to our view. Psychology knows the second hindrance as the process of denial. The third hindrance is sloth and torpor. This does not distort what we see, hear, sense, or cognize; rather, it buries it in a fog so that we are unable to discern clearly. The fourth hindrance, restlessness and remorse, keeps our senses on the run, so fast that we do not have sufficient time to see, hear, sense, or cognize fully. Sights do not have time to fully form on our retina before the back of the eye has another sight to deal with. Sounds are hardly registered when we are asked to listen to something else. The fourth hindrance of restlessness, and its special case of remorse (inner restlessness due to bad conduct), is like the overdemanding boss in your office who never gives you enough time to finish a project properly. The fifth hindrance is doubt, which interrupts the gathering of data with premature questions. Before we have fully experienced the seen, heard, sensed, or cognized, doubt interferes with the process, like a cocky student interrupting the teacher with a question in the midst of the lecture. It is these five hindrances that distort perception, corrupt thinking, and maintain a deluded view.

It is well known among serious students of Buddhism that the only way to suppress these five hindrances is through the practice of jhana. As it says in the Nalakapana Sutta (MN 68), for those who do not attain a jhana, the five hindrances (plus discontent and weariness) invade the mind and remain. Anything less than jhana is not powerful and lasting enough to suppress the five hindrances sufficiently. So, even if you are practicing bare mindfulness, if the five hindrances are still active at a subconscious level, you are not seeing things as they truly are; you are only seeing things as they seem, distorted by these five hindrances.

As I'm contemplating this, it's fascinating how all elements of the path are inter-related. PeterB had mentioned in another discussion the essential role of cultivating upekkha in our practice. Metta also, seems crucial. How do you view this, the difficulties caused by the hindrances and successful methods for defeating, suppressing or subduing them?

:namaste:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by DNS »

christopher::: wrote: As I'm contemplating this, it's fascinating how all elements of the path are inter-related. PeterB had mentioned in another discussion the essential role of cultivating upekkha in our practice. Metta also, seems crucial. How do you view this, the difficulties caused by the hindrances and successful methods for defeating, suppressing or subduing them?
Guarding the sense doors. Guard the sense doors well, and the rest can follow with the cultivation of metta and upekkha. Craving comes through one of the sense doors and then it's all downhill from there. Guarding the sense doors can never be under-stated.

:jedi:
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by BlackBird »

I think it's clear to say one does not need Jhana to achieve nibbana. Some methods stress the importance of Jhana, others say it's not so important.

Venerable Pesala sums it up well
Venerable. Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Moral Kamma Producing Effects in the Realms of Form

These powerful wholesome kammas transcend the sensual realm. Sensual desire is one of the five hindrances to concentration, so to attain jhāna one has to overcome sensual thoughts. The jhānas are difficult to attain, and difficult to maintain. They are not usually attained when practising the pure insight method, but insight meditators do experience states comparable to jhāna. Insight cuts off defilements at the root, jhāna only cuts them off at the base, so insight meditation is preferable.
- http://aimwell.org/Books/Pesala/Kamma/kamma.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

At the Pa Auk Forest Monastery for example (which draws much of it's basis from the authoritative texts) Jhanas are taught before mature insight practices. It's easy to understand why too, because the peace brought about by Samadhi (tranquility) practice provides a very stable ground for insight to arise.

Thus Jhanas are not necessary (See: Mahasi Method), but certainly very very helpful.

As far as the hindrances are concerned. At a mundane level, each individual hindrance can be prevented from 'taking over' through a series of means. Venerable Nyanaponika writes an excellent exposition on this:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el026.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A great way for developing equanimity is to frequently contemplate the body and mind as not self. The thought occurred to me the other day that the body exists after death. It remains in it's form after the "person" has died. Now if the body were self, surely it would dissappear when the person died and was reborn. But it doesn't, because it is not the self, it is not who I am, or who you are. :smile: In the moments where we no longer identify with the self, all the problems of our life cease to be our problems. It no longer matters so much when we break a plate, or that the dishes have mounted up exponentially and it's not fair. It doesn't mean we don't care, it just means we don't get caught up in identifying with it. Voila, a degree of equanimity.

At least, that's what makes sense to me anyway.
:anjali:
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'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by tiltbillings »

BlackBird wrote:
A great way for developing equanimity is to frequently contemplate the body and mind as not self. :anjali:
Jack
How?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by BlackBird »

tiltbillings wrote:
BlackBird wrote:
A great way for developing equanimity is to frequently contemplate the body and mind as not self. :anjali:
Jack
How?
Well I usually direct my awareness towards the whole body, then holding that awareness on the one hand I imagine and think about what the body looks like, imagining an external point of view somewhat akin to looking in the mirror I think: Is this who I am? Is this the self? How could this be the self, if it remains after death? This is not the self, this cannot be who I am.

So far it's been very good at generating equanimity towards some of the more coarse objects of dukkha.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by tiltbillings »

BlackBird wrote: Well I usually direct my awareness towards the whole body, then holding that awareness on the one hand I imagine and think about what the body looks like, imagining an external point of view somewhat akin to looking in the mirror I think: Is this who I am? Is this the self? How could this be the self, if it remains after death? This is not the self, this cannot be who I am.

So far it's been very good at generating equanimity towards some of the more coarse objects of dukkha.
There is nothing wrong with this. It is, however, still pretty much a conceptual practice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,

Yes, but not overly dissimilar to the Satipatthana techniques on body parts.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by Jechbi »

Why are we evaluating somebody else's contemplation technique here? I don't see how this benefits anyone, or what it has to do with the OP. Maybe I'm missing something here ...

BlackBird, best wishes for success in your practice. Thank you for your efforts.
:anjali:
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Jechbi,
Jechbi wrote:Why are we evaluating somebody else's contemplation technique here? I don't see how this benefits anyone, or what it has to do with the OP.
The connection I had in mind was that "conceptual" forms of meditation are only good up to the first jhana, and that upekkha is the trademark of the third jhana.

"He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' "

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by tiltbillings »

Jechbi wrote:Why are we evaluating somebody else's contemplation technique here? I don't see how this benefits anyone, or what it has to do with the OP. Maybe I'm missing something here ...

BlackBird, best wishes for success in your practice. Thank you for your efforts.
:anjali:
No one here is "evaluating" (and certainly not criticizing) any one's practice here. My comment is made in light of the style of vipassana as taught by Joseph Goldstein, which is very to the point of this thread, and as Retro points what BB describes is in line with the contemplative practices one finds in the Satipatthana Sutta.

BB stated: "A great way for developing equanimity is to frequently contemplate the body and mind as not self."

There is, also, another way of doing this in line with what the vipassana practice Joseph Goldstein teaches in the linked talked in the OP, which would be worth considering. So, yes, you seemed to have missed something here, but thanks for allowing for some clarification.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by christopher::: »

Hey guys, thanks all for jumping in.

So far i think i'm understanding your explanations. I did have some questions though, concerning the role of jhanas, as Ajahn Brahm described them. What he wrote makes sense to me conceptually, but its not something i've had more then extremely fleeting experience with. Goldstein, on the other hand, seems to be speaking more of mindfulness, which I think i have much more experiential understanding of... Its for that reason that I insterted upekkha into the title of this thread, cause in my own experience equanimity is a necessary component for maintaining careful concentration, observing the arising of hindrances in the mind, and then letting them go freely, fading away, without responding.

But Ajahn Brahm said this:
It is well known among serious students of Buddhism that the only way to suppress these five hindrances is through the practice of jhana. As it says in the Nalakapana Sutta (MN 68), for those who do not attain a jhana, the five hindrances (plus discontent and weariness) invade the mind and remain. Anything less than jhana is not powerful and lasting enough to suppress the five hindrances sufficiently. So, even if you are practicing bare mindfulness, if the five hindrances are still active at a subconscious level, you are not seeing things as they truly are; you are only seeing things as they seem, distorted by these five hindrances.
I wonder, why do you think he used the term "suppression" and why does he view mindfulness as insufficient? Do you agree with him, in all cases, or does it depend on the person? Goldstein's approach seems to be based more on mindfulness and understanding, which leads to the slow unraveling of habit patterns. They lose power over time as we understand how they work and don't respond reactively. In my limited experience that seems like a better approach over the long term then suppression...

It's quite possible though, even probable, that I am missing something here in the Ajahn's perspective, especially since I'm not the world's greatest meditator...

:smile:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by tiltbillings »

christopher::: wrote:
I wonder, why do you think he used the term "suppression"? Goldstein's approach seems to be a bit different, based more on mindfulness and understanding, which leads to the slow unraveling of habit patterns. They lose power over time as we understand how they work and don't respond reactively...

It's quite possible, even probable, that I am missing something here in the Ajahn's perspective, especially since I'm not the world's greatest meditator...

yet..!

:namaste:
You are not missing anything. What you are seeing here is the divide between the two camps of practice. My preference is in terms of the mindfulness practice as outlined by Goldstein. (And for those who like to jump on what I am saying, this is not to dismiss jhana.) Not only do these thing lose power over time, that is in good part to gaining insight - seeing directly - into their conditioned, impermanent, unsatisfactory, empty of self nature.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Christopher,

The short answer is that Ajahn Brahm teaches the classic Jhana approach:
Attain the Jhanas, come out and, as it says in the various Suttas:
"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the monk directs and inclines it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. He discerns, as it has come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are mental fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Joseph Goldstein teaches (and illuminates with his great depth of personal experience) an approach from the Mahasi school, which he primarily learned from U Pandita. This is a "dry insight" approach, which does not rely on attaining Jhana, "access concentration" being deemed enough to suppress the hindrances enough to attain enough calm for the insight process (any development of concentration, including what one does in the Mahasi appraoch, tends to temporarily suppress the hindrances, which gives one a chance to do the insight bit...).
See, for example, the material on: http://aimwell.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If you want an introduction to the meditation style then this is a good brief introduction:
http://buddhanet.net/imol/wrkshp.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The "dry insight" approach is expounded in great detail in the Commentaries and the Visuddhimagga, though one could argue that it is based on the approach taught in the Satipatthana Sutta.

Metta
Mike




Metta
Mike
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by tiltbillings »

Like everything, it is never quite so simple as the traditional dry insight vs jhanas divide, as we can see in the discussions of the "vipassana jhanas", a coinage coming out of the Mahasi Sayadaw tradition. One thing this suggests is that the traditional commentarial descriptions of the jhanas are not quite the full picture and that dry insight is not quite so dry.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by mikenz66 »

tiltbillings wrote:Like everything, it is never quite so simple as the traditional dry insight vs jhanas divide, ...
Well, of course, I agree, but I was trying to give Christopher some background to understand what he was reading/listening to. In my view it's a matter of whether concentration or insight is emphasised. Attaining Jhana without some quite good insight into the hindrances, or attaining insight without any concentration seems unlikely to me.

Metta
Mike
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