Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
BlackBird
Posts: 2069
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm

Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by BlackBird »

EOD wrote:
BlackBird wrote:I think it's clear to say one does not need Jhana to achieve nibbana.
Hello

... [snip] ...


But I don't want to say that we have to master all the four jhanas in order to achieve nibbana or that we have to develop the jhanas "extra". I think they are a result of a correct practice.

Best wishes,

EOD
Glad to see we're on the same page then :tongue:

As for the rest, concentration may be developed to absorbtion jhana, or vipassana jhana (which I think) is based at an access-concentration stage. According to the Mahasi method, one does not need to develop absorbtion Jhana in order to achieve nibbana. One can go straight from access-concentration to mature Vipassana practise, using the methods employed in the style.

As for why the Buddha taught absorbtion Jhanas, perhaps it is because they are really really helpful?
EOD wrote:
If we start doubting that one part of the path is not really necessary, there is no reason to stop there. What about the other parts? Right speech for example. Unnecessary too? I don't think that this is an appropriate attitude towards the teachings.

...
But what about morality? It is also not explicitly mentiond in that sutta. Does this mean that morality is not necessary? Certainly not. One has to read more than one sutta to get a picture of the whole.
Don't extrapolate the debate over the degree of Right Concentration necessary, with the need for Right speech, and morality. That is flawed logic my friend.

In essense, you're taking this up with the wrong person. I think it would be best to speak to someone who has more experience with dry-vipassana, perhaps have a talk to the Venerable Bhikkhu Pesala about this, as he is quite learned on the subject.

Metta & :anjali:
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by tiltbillings »

Jechbi wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:No one here is "evaluating" (and certainly not criticizing) ...
I never mentioned criticism. But certainly, there's no other way to describe your earlier post except to acknowledge that it constituted a form of evaluation of Blackbird's contemplation practice. In what respect would you say that your comment about his practice fails to rise to the level of an evaluation of it? Of his practice, you wrote: "There is nothing wrong with this. It is, however, still pretty much a conceptual practice." Clearly, that is an evaluation.
tiltbillings wrote:So, yes, you seemed to have missed something here ...
No, I don't think I did in this case. I feel as though now I'm defending myself here.
Huh? You seem to be stuck on "evalution" here. If you want this to be an evaluation, then for you it is such. I thought I was looking for information in the context of the OP, which is vipassana and jhana practices. I did not say that you said I was criticizing. That was a parenthetical aside to clarify my intent. If you wish to comment on this further, then please do so via PM.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by tiltbillings »

EOD wrote: But I don't want to say that we have to master all the four jhanas in order to achieve nibbana or that we have to develop the jhanas "extra". I think they are a result of a correct practice.
I think this correct, but what is meant by jhana might not be all that clear as the first link in Moggalana's above msg makes clear. Also, in terms of the Mahasi Sayadaw vipassana tradition, it may not be as "dry" as as it first seems as my above links to the vipassana jhanas show.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
EOD
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:16 pm

Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by EOD »

BlackBird wrote:Don't extrapolate the debate over the degree of Right Concentration necessary, with the need for Right speech, and morality. That is flawed logic my friend.
I'm sorry, but don't think so. We surely agree that morality and concentration are not the same, but they belong to the same (noble eightfold) path. To question one part of that path could lead to questioning the path as a whole, i. e. its "eightfoldness". Maybe it was off-topic to bring morality in here. BTW: I'm not saying that you or anyone else here denies the necessity of morality (or even of right concentration as such). If you understood my posting this way I would like to apologize for that.

Best wishes

EOD
User avatar
BlackBird
Posts: 2069
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm

Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by BlackBird »

EOD wrote:Maybe it was off-topic to bring morality in here. BTW: I'm not saying that you or anyone else here denies the necessity of morality (or even of right concentration as such). If you understood my posting this way I would like to apologize for that.

Best wishes

EOD
No, I don't interprete your posting in that way, so that's cool :smile:

I guess I'm sort of playing devil's advocate here, because I've always held the Jhana's to be important. I just don't think we should go so far to say that the pursuing tranquility meditation to it's culmination is a necessary factor for enlightenment.

When I was on retreat earlier this year Venerable Ajahn Tiradhammo related a story to me about a Q&A session he had with the Venerable Ajahn Chah. Ajahn Ti asked Ajahn Chah how far one needed to develop calm meditation in order to practise vipassana. Ajahn Chah responded: "Calm enough."

:anjali:
Jack
Jechbi wrote: BlackBird, best wishes for success in your practice.
Thank you my friend, best wishes for success in your practise also :smile:
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
User avatar
christopher:::
Posts: 1327
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:56 am

Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by christopher::: »

BlackBird wrote:
I guess I'm sort of playing devil's advocate here, because I've always held the Jhana's to be important. I just don't think we should go so far to say that the pursuing tranquility meditation to it's culmination is a necessary factor for enlightenment.

When I was on retreat earlier this year Venerable Ajahn Tiradhammo related a story to me about a Q&A session he had with the Venerable Ajahn Chah. Ajahn Ti asked Ajahn Chah how far one needed to develop calm meditation in order to practise vipassana. Ajahn Chah responded: "Calm enough."
That makes good sense, BlackBird. Though I would think as one gets closer and closer to deepest enlightenment the calm probably deepens as well, just naturally, organically...

Kind of related...
Jechbi wrote:
Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:The connection I had in mind was that "conceptual" forms of meditation are only good up to the first jhana, and that upekkha is the trademark of the third jhana.
One wonders whether upekkha in any form is possible outside of jhana, for example, can we bring equanimity to the processes of driving a car, or to the process of engaging with colleagues at work? In other words, can we bring upekkha into our practice when we bring our practice out into the world?

Or would you regard upekkha as a narrow term in this context that only can be applied to its manifestation at some stage of meditative absorption?

In answer to the OP, I think one outcome of practicing the 8fold path is that it can strenghthen upekkha on and off the cushion.
Hi Jechbi,

I see Retro hasn't come by yet. He just posted this though in another discussion, which I think relates...
retrofuturist wrote: Have you read...?

DN 22: Maha-Satipatthana Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And from the Intro...
Translator's Introduction

The word "satipatthana" is the name for an approach to meditation aimed at establishing sati, or mindfulness. The term sati is related to the verb sarati, to remember or to keep in mind. It is sometimes translated as non-reactive awareness, free from agendas, simply present with whatever arises, but the formula for satipatthana doesn't support that translation. Non-reactive awareness is actually an aspect of equanimity, a quality fostered in the course of satipatthana. The activity of satipatthana, however, definitely has a motivating agenda: the desire for Awakening, which is classed not as a cause of suffering, but as part of the path to its ending (see SN 51.15). The role of mindfulness is to keep the mind properly grounded in the present moment in a way that will keep it on the path. To make an analogy, Awakening is like a mountain on the horizon, the destination to which you are driving a car. Mindfulness is what remembers to keep attention focused on the road to the mountain, rather than letting it stay focused on glimpses of the mountain or get distracted by other paths leading away from the road.
So, I think (if i understand correctly) mindfulness practice is very much about bringing equanimity (upekkha) out into the world, with a calm non-reactive awareness of everything we do...

Including car driving!

:smile:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by tiltbillings »

christopher::: wrote:

So, I think (if i understand correctly) mindfulness practice is very much about bringing equanimity (upekkha) out into the world, with a calm non-reactive awareness of everything we do...

Including car driving!
The thing is, however, you have to react, to pick and choose.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
christopher:::
Posts: 1327
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:56 am

Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by christopher::: »

tiltbillings wrote:
christopher::: wrote:

So, I think (if i understand correctly) mindfulness practice is very much about bringing equanimity (upekkha) out into the world, with a calm non-reactive awareness of everything we do...

Including car driving!
The thing is, however, you have to react, to pick and choose.
React or respond?

I guess the question is what the translator meant with the phrase "non-reactive awareness"...
"The term sati is related to the verb sarati, to remember or to keep in mind. It is sometimes translated as non-reactive awareness, free from agendas, simply present with whatever arises, but the formula for satipatthana doesn't support that translation. Non-reactive awareness is actually an aspect of equanimity, a quality fostered in the course of satipatthana..."

Bikkhu Thanissaro
Picking and choosing seems to mesh with this just fine.

:smile:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
User avatar
Jechbi
Posts: 1268
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:38 am
Contact:

Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by Jechbi »

Hi Christopher,
christopher::: wrote:So, I think (if i understand correctly) mindfulness practice is very much about bringing equanimity (upekkha) out into the world, with a calm non-reactive awareness of everything we do...

Including car driving!
I would tend to agree with this in some respects, with the caveat that reactions are probably going to keep on occurring, but that we also can bring some measure of equanimity to those very reactions, so that they don't feed themselves and deepen. Or at least not as much.

In my experience (and I suspect many others have had this same experience), perfect equanimity is not a realistic expectation at this stage, but some degree of equanimity is possible, even in those moments when a reaction has occurred. So for example instead of staying angry all day, we might come out of anger in just a few minutes, and then it's over with. In that respect, equanimity in its conventional sense does indeed seem to help with hindrances at the surface level. Maybe that's your experience as well?

:smile:
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by tiltbillings »

christopher::: wrote: Picking and choosing seems to mesh with this just fine.
It raises an interesting question betwen the world of zafu and the world of crossing the street.

I once said to you that the Hsin Hsin Ming was a meditation text, which I think it primarily is (but, of course, that may not be the only way to read it). Read it through carefully in that light. What is interesting is the transition between the zafu and your daily activities of brushing your teeth, interacting with people, being for something or against something, following the precepts.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
christopher:::
Posts: 1327
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:56 am

Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by christopher::: »

Jechbi wrote:Hi Christopher,
christopher::: wrote:So, I think (if i understand correctly) mindfulness practice is very much about bringing equanimity (upekkha) out into the world, with a calm non-reactive awareness of everything we do...

Including car driving!
I would tend to agree with this in some respects, with the caveat that reactions are probably going to keep on occurring, but that we also can bring some measure of equanimity to those very reactions, so that they don't feed themselves and deepen. Or at least not as much.
Yes, definitely!
In my experience (and I suspect many others have had this same experience), perfect equanimity is not a realistic expectation at this stage, but some degree of equanimity is possible, even in those moments when a reaction has occurred. So for example instead of staying angry all day, we might come out of anger in just a few minutes, and then it's over with. In that respect, equanimity in its conventional sense does indeed seem to help with hindrances at the surface level. Maybe that's your experience as well?
Very much so. That's the "practice" of it. Over time the periods of anger/lust/etc last for shorter and shorter periods. Eventually you get to the point where the arising of emotion/thought (I'm gonna kill that &$#0*%) is there on the inside for a few seconds and then you almost laugh at it...

"What, you again?"

Interestingly I've been trying to help my wife and son with this, for years now. :tongue: But there is no way to teach this to anyone else if you aren't consistently practicing yourself, mastering this, in either the way Ajahn Brahm or Goldstein teaches....

Mastering and/or gaining insight into these elements of the deluded self...
tiltbillings wrote:
christopher::: wrote: Picking and choosing seems to mesh with this just fine.
It raises an interesting question between the world of zafu and the world of crossing the street.

I once said to you that the Hsin Hsin Ming was a meditation text, which I think it primarily is (but, of course, that may not be the only way to read it). Read it through carefully in that light. What is interesting is the transition between the zafu and your daily activities of brushing your teeth, interacting with people, being for something or against something, following the precepts.
Yes! Well, i think this is exactly what sati and zen mind are all about. We are cultivating mindfulness and equanimity on the cushion, almost like keeping your knife sharp as a butcher (sorry for the analogy).... But its then when we get off the zafu that this "mind" is really put to the test.

:meditate: :jedi:
Last edited by christopher::: on Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:36 am, edited 3 times in total.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by tiltbillings »

christopher::: wrote:
Yes! Well, i think this is exactly what sati and zen mind are all about. We are cultivating mindfulness and equanimity on the cushion, almost like keeping your knife sharp as a butcher (sorry for the analogy).... But its then when we get off the zafu that this "mind" is really put to the test.
So, that is the question: how does zafu experience translate to crossing the street?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
christopher:::
Posts: 1327
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:56 am

Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by christopher::: »

tiltbillings wrote:
So, that is the question: how does zafu experience translate to crossing the street?
The science of it, or the subjective experience?
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by tiltbillings »

christopher::: wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
So, that is the question: how does zafu experience translate to crossing the street?
The science of it, or the subjective experience?
Either, if you wish. I am not so much actually asking you (or anyone) to answer this question in personal terms. I am simply posing the question because it is an interesting thing, and important thing, to look at. In our daily lives we are forced to respond to the continual input of our senses.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
christopher:::
Posts: 1327
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:56 am

Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by christopher::: »

tiltbillings wrote:I am not so much actually asking you (or anyone) to answer this question in personal terms. I am simply posing the question because it is an interesting thing, and important thing, to look at. In our daily lives we are forced to respond to the continual input of our senses.
Yes!

Two words come into mind for me right off- practice & priority...

Practice cause you get up with that knife sharpened and then Life throws all these curve balls at you... It's almost like that equanimity is at a level that decreases steadily. Some people have mastered this and are like hybrid cars, you can go for hours without needing fuel or a recharge. Others need to constantly cultivate equanimity throughout the day...

Cause when you don't... BAM... smash.... crasssssh..... Dukkha..!!!!

And priority cause its easy to de-prioritize the practice. So easy. A thousand things can keep you from monitoring your upekkha level...

Mindfulness- is all about making this a priority.

just my 2 cents.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
Post Reply