the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

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tharpa
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Post by tharpa »

kirk5a wrote:"When this nature disintegrates after having been destroyed by discernment, a nature marvelous far above and beyond any conventional reality will appear in full measure. At the same moment, we will see the harm of what is harmful and the benefits of what is beneficial. The awareness of release will appear as dhammo padipo -- the brightness of the Dhamma -- in full radiance, like the sun that, when unobscured by clouds, lets the world receive the full radiance of its light. The result is that the awareness of release appears plainly to the heart of the meditator the moment unawareness has disbanded."
- Venerable Acariya Maha Boowa Ñanasampanno
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... ey_Are.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I read one of Ven. Maha Boowa's books while I was in an aranya in Sri Lanka in the '90's. It seemed pretty clear that he believed in an atta, and thus was a heretic by Buddhist standards. He said that one should let all of the false views of self come to their demise, and what was left was the true self. This did not seem to be a method of discovering not-self, it seemed like discovering the true self was the end goal for him.

I therefore would respectfully not regard that monk as an authority on anything other than his own views.
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Post by SarathW »

Nibbana is the freedom from ignorance.
If you are wise you would not think about Nibbana! (the raft)
:shrug:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Post by tharpa »

SarathW wrote:Nibbana is the freedom from ignorance.
If you are wise you would not think about Nibbana! (the raft)
:shrug:
Sorry, I don't get your point. Are you saying that NIbbana is the raft?
Dhamma and sila is the raft. Nibbana is the destination. Prior to attaining Nibbana, the wise do think about dhamma, sila and nibbana. This is what impels them to practice, and practice correctly.
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Post by SarathW »

The word Nibbana is a fabrication.
So it is a raft too!
:)
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Post by tharpa »

SarathW wrote:The word Nibbana is a fabrication.
So it is a raft too!
:)
So when you reach Nibbana, you can abandon the word. Until then, the wise ponder it.
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Post by SarathW »

Of course.
:)
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Post by seeker242 »

One of my favorite short suttas regarding the not-extinct vs extinct issue. :smile:
"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. SN 12.15 Kaccayanagotta Sutta: To Kaccayana Gotta (on Right View) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
So it seems to me that if you still see some kind of existence or extinction, then you still don't have a right view since right view involves none of the above? Except of course "ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications...From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death", etc. etc.?

:anjali:
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

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seeker242 wrote:One of my favorite short suttas regarding the not-extinct vs extinct issue. :smile:
"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. SN 12.15 Kaccayanagotta Sutta: To Kaccayana Gotta (on Right View) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
So it seems to me that if you still see some kind of existence or extinction, then you still don't have a right view since right view involves none of the above? Except of course "ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications...From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death", etc. etc.?

:anjali:
Normally I wouldn't respond just to say "ditto", but you do have question marks, so yes, that seems to be what he is saying. It's interesting though, because here he seems to be calling the view "Everything doesn't exist" as an extreme, but isn't one of the higher jhanas something like "nothing exists"?

Edit: Sort of. ""Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of nothingness. Whatever qualities there are in the dimension of nothingness — the perception of the dimension of nothingness, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. " - From the Anupada Sutta
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Where does one go on attaining Nibbana

Post by indian_buddhist »

Nibbana - from my understanding is the deathless stage.

It signifies the following:-

1. Complete destruction of Greed, Hatred and Delusion.
2. No more rebirths in any realm of existence.
3. It is a deathless stage.

My questions are :-
On attaining Nibbana:-
1. Where does one go?.
2. What are the qualities of attaining Nibbana. Is it pure happiness and bliss?.
3. Does one stay in Nibbana state permanently for infinite eons?.
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Re: Where does one go on attaining Nibbana

Post by cooran »

Hello Indian_Buddhist, all,

This LONG thread may be of interest:

Is the result of Parinibbana annihilation?
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1039

With metta,
Chris
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Re: Where does one go on attaining Nibbana

Post by Reductor »

indian_buddhist wrote:Nibbana - from my understanding is the deathless stage.

It signifies the following:-

1. Complete destruction of Greed, Hatred and Delusion.
2. No more rebirths in any realm of existence.
3. It is a deathless stage.

My questions are :-
On attaining Nibbana:-
1. Where does one go?.
2. What are the qualities of attaining Nibbana. Is it pure happiness and bliss?.
3. Does one stay in Nibbana state permanently for infinite eons?.
1. Once you've attained nibbana, you no longer have a fixed conception of you and no longer place any importance on whether you continue or cease, or change or whatever. But, to the point, Nibbana is not a place and no one can 'go there'. You simply cease to cling to your own existence and no longer think of yourself as eternal and unchanging, and what it is more, you have no desire for an eternal, unchanging self.

2. Nibbana has no feeling. It is not something that exists, but is lack greed, hate and delusion and all the mental states, and mental turmoil, that arise because of them. But, when an arahant reflects on the cessation of greed, hate, delusion, and all the mental turmoil, they feel pleasure. But they don't try to keep that pleasure for ever, and don't morn when it fades away.

3. No one stays in nibbana for ever. But once greed, hate and delusion have been existinguished in a human being, they don't return. So, this non-returning of greed, hate and delusion could be seen as eternal nibbana.
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Re: Where does one go on attaining Nibbana

Post by indian_buddhist »

cooran wrote:Hello Indian_Buddhist, all,

This LONG thread may be of interest:

Is the result of Parinibbana annihilation?
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1039

With metta,
Chris
Hello Chris,

I completely know it is not Annihilation. Obviously it is not annihilation. How can it be Annihilation?.....Annihilation is end of everything - both Good qualities and Bad qualities.

But Nibbana is destruction of only the Bad qualities - Greed, Hatred and Delusion. Once that is achieved.....I am interested to know what happens after that?.
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Re: Where does one go on attaining Nibbana

Post by indian_buddhist »

Reductor wrote:

3. No one stays in nibbana for ever. But once greed, hate and delusion have been existinguished in a human being, they don't return. So, this non-returning of greed, hate and delusion could be seen as eternal nibbana.
Are you sure about this?. I thought Nibbana was a Deathless state - a Permanent state of being. Correct me if i am wrong.
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Re: Where does one go on attaining Nibbana

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Where does a flame go when it is extinguished?

Nibbāna is not a place, so no one "goes to nibbāna," and there are no Buddhas or Arahants "in nibbāna."

The self-view is an illusion. When that illusion has been understood, the two extreme wrong views of annihilationism and eternalism will also be destroyed.
Last edited by Bhikkhu Pesala on Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where does one go on attaining Nibbana

Post by tiltbillings »

indian_buddhist wrote:
Reductor wrote:

3. No one stays in nibbana for ever. But once greed, hate and delusion have been existinguished in a human being, they don't return. So, this non-returning of greed, hate and delusion could be seen as eternal nibbana.
Are you sure about this?. I thought Nibbana was a Deathless state - a Permanent state of being. Correct me if i am wrong.
It is wrongly put. Nibbana, by definition, is the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion. There is no "in nibbana" except in a figurative sense.
  • S.N. IV 251 and IV 321: "That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is nibbana."
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