What does grasping mean?

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What does grasping mean?

Postby sundara » Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:32 pm

What does grasping mean?
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Re: What does grasping mean?

Postby Prasadachitta » Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:58 pm

My understanding is...

Grasping is when we relate to an experience as if it had a sustained duration. This could be an experience of the past present or future.

Just my thoughts on it.

Take care

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Re: What does grasping mean?

Postby David N. Snyder » Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:05 pm

Taṇhā = craving

As opposed to chandha, which is wholesome desire or zeal to accomplish something good.
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Re: What does grasping mean?

Postby Zack » Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:53 pm

Wanting for something or a feeling to not leave or change.
I am of nature to decay, I have not gone beyond decay.
I am of the nature to be diseased, I have not gone beyond disease.
I am of the nature to die, I have not done beyond death.
All that is mine, dear and delightful, will change and vanish.
I am the owner of my kamma, heir to my kamma, born of my kamma, related to
my kamma, abide supported by my kamma. Whatever kamma I shall do,
whether good or evil, of that I shall be the heir.
Thus we should frequently recollect.
- Upajjhatthana Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya v.57
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Re: What does grasping mean?

Postby pink_trike » Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:15 pm

Reaching in hunger. Neediness. The trigger of becoming.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Re: What does grasping mean?

Postby appicchato » Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:50 pm

pink_trike wrote:Reaching in hunger. Neediness. The trigger of becoming.


Mmm...maybe more like wantiness...there is (as we know) a profound difference between needs and wants...

'I get what I want but not what I need' - ZZTop
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Re: What does grasping mean?

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:00 pm

The Pali term often translated as "grasping" or "clinging" is upādāna.

Here is Venerable Nyanatiloka's summary:
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... 1d%C4%81na
Upādāna: 'clinging', according to Vis.M XVII, is an intensified degree of craving tanhā. The 4 kinds of clinging are: sense-clinging kāmupādāna, clinging to views ditthupādāna clinging to mere rules and ritual sīlabbatupādāna, clinging to the personality-belief atta-vādupādāna.

1;What now is the sense-clinging? Whatever with regard to sense-objects there exists of sense-lust, sense-desire, sense-attachment, sense-passion, sense-confusedness, sense-mental chains: this is called sense-clinging.

2 ''What is the clinging to views? 'Food and offerings are useless; there is no fruit and result for good and bad deeds: all such view and wrong conceptions are called the clinging to views.

3;What is the clinging to mere rules and ritual? The holding firmly to the view that through mere rules and ritual one may reach purification: this is called the clinging to mere rules and ritual.

4;What is the clinging to the personality-belief? The 20 kinds of ego-views with regard to the groups of existence see: sakkāya-ditthi these are called the clinging to the personality-belief; Dhs. 1214-17.

This traditional fourfold division of clinging is not quite satisfactory. Besides kamupādāna we should expect either rūpupādāna and arūpupādāna or simply bhavupādāna Though the Anāgāmī is entirely free from the traditional 4 kinds of upādāna he is not freed from rebirth, as he still possesses bhavupādāna The Com. to Vis.M XVII, in trying to get out of this dilemma, explains kāmupādāna as including here all the remaining kinds of clinging.

Clinging' is the common rendering for u., though 'grasping' would come closer to the literal meaning of it, which is 'uptake'; see: Three Cardinal Discourses WHEEL 17, p.19.

upādāna-khandha: the 5 'groups of clinging', or more clearly stated in accordance with Vis.M, 'the 5 groups of existence which form the objects of clinging'. Cf. M. 44, and see khandha

Upādā-rūpa: 'derived materiality', signifies the 24 secondary material phenomena dependent on the 4 primary physical elements, i.e. the sense-organs and sense-objects, etc. See khandha I; App.


Also see the 9th chain of Dependent Origination: clinging is conditioned by craving (tanhā):
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... pp%C4%81da
...
8. tanhā-paccayā upādānam Through craving is conditioned clinging

9. upādāna-paccayā bhavo Through clinging is conditioned the process of becoming,; consisting in the active and the passive life process, i.e. the rebirth-producing kamma-making kamma-bhava and, as its result, the rebirth-process upapatti-bhava.

10. Bhava-paccayā jāti Through the rebirth-producing kamma-process of becoming is conditioned rebirth.
...

Mike
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Re: What does grasping mean?

Postby pink_trike » Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:04 pm

appicchato wrote:
pink_trike wrote:Reaching in hunger. Neediness. The trigger of becoming.


Mmm...maybe more like wantiness...there is (as we know) a profound difference between needs and wants...

'I get what I want but not what I need' - ZZTop

Yes, you're right. I tripped out of Buddhism into Western psychology speak for a moment. There's an important hair split there.
Last edited by pink_trike on Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Re: What does grasping mean?

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:05 pm

Here is a whole chapter of Sutta quotations from Thanissaro Bhikkhu
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... e/2-3.html
Upadana carries both of its meanings — clinging & sustenance — when applied to the mind. It refers on the one hand both to mental clinging & to the object clung to, and on the other to both the act of taking mental sustenance & the sustenance itself. This, of course, raises the question, 'Sustenance for what?' In the description of dependent co-arising, upadana forms the condition for becoming and, through becoming, for birth, aging, death, and the entire mass of suffering & stress. Thus the answer: 'Sustenance for becoming' & its attendant ills.
...

Mike
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Re: What does grasping mean?

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:21 pm

Dear Venerable,
appicchato wrote:Mmm...maybe more like wantiness...there is (as we know) a profound difference between needs and wants...

'I get what I want but not what I need' - ZZTop

Good quote. Some other views of that distinction:
You cant always get what you want
But if you try sometimes well you might find
You get what you need...
Rolling Stones (1969)


When Ruthie says come see her
In her honky-tonk lagoon,
Where I can watch her waltz for free
'Neath her Panamanian moon.
An' I say, "Aw come on now,
You must know about my debutante."
An' she says, "Your debutante just knows what you need
But I know what you want
."
Bob Dylan (1966)
http://www.bobdylan.com/#/songs/stuck-i ... lues-again


Metta
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Re: What does grasping mean?

Postby kidd » Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:48 am

Grasping is trying to get hold of things that don't exist; things that exist only in the mind, in illusion.

:juggling:
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Re: What does grasping mean?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:27 am

Hi Kidd,
kidd wrote:Grasping is trying to get hold of things that don't exist; things that exist only in the mind, in illusion.

This could certainly be applied to grasping onto a sense of self, but are you saying that sense-objects that we cling to (which might include objects such as bodies, food, sounds, etc) don't exist?

From my post above:
1;What now is the sense-clinging? Whatever with regard to sense-objects there exists of sense-lust, sense-desire, sense-attachment, sense-passion, sense-confusedness, sense-mental chains: this is called sense-clinging.

Mike
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Re: What does grasping mean?

Postby sundara » Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:27 am

Sense desire is so hard to give up. Sense desire is the first hindrance in the list of the hindrances.
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Re: What does grasping mean?

Postby kidd » Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:21 pm

hi Mike,
I'm referring, for example, to people who imagine they can satisfy their needs, their human needs, through immoral behavior; grasping at lies, illusions.
kidd

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Re: What does grasping mean?

Postby kidd » Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:28 pm

sundara wrote:Sense desire is so hard to give up. Sense desire is the first hindrance in the list of the hindrances.


There is no benefit in giving up natural and normal human desires; the benefit, the human benefit, comes from giving up cravings; lust, greed, and the like.

:juggling:
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Re: What does grasping mean?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:25 am

Greetings kidd,

kidd wrote:There is no benefit in giving up natural and normal human desires; the benefit, the human benefit, comes from giving up cravings; lust, greed, and the like.


What's the difference between "natural and normal human desires" and "cravings; lust, greed, and the like"?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: What does grasping mean?

Postby kidd » Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:26 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings kidd,

kidd wrote:There is no benefit in giving up natural and normal human desires; the benefit, the human benefit, comes from giving up cravings; lust, greed, and the like.


What's the difference between "natural and normal human desires" and "cravings; lust, greed, and the like"?

Metta,
Retro. :)


hi retrofuturist,

Natural and normal human desires include, for example, the desires for shelter, clothing, food and medicine; lust is, for example, craving sexual relations with the spouses of others; greed is, for example, craving monetary gain without regard to what it may cost others.

kidd
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Re: What does grasping mean?

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:42 am

Hi Kidd,

So your definition of grasping rules out lust for your spouse, or for legitimately gained food, cars, etc? Can you reconcile this with the Buddha's definitions given, for example, above at: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2296#p31814 ?

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Re: What does grasping mean?

Postby christopher::: » Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:38 am

mikenz66 wrote:
1;What now is the sense-clinging? Whatever with regard to sense-objects there exists of sense-lust, sense-desire, sense-attachment, sense-passion, sense-confusedness, sense-mental chains: this is called sense-clinging.




Chains many of us have known far too well. Sometimes it seems like one needs to dive deep, hit bottom, to break free...

Another related Dylan song....

Bob Dylan - Cold irons bound

:juggling:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: What does grasping mean?

Postby kenneth » Tue Aug 10, 2010 6:50 pm

Life is a movement, a flow. Believing we are the controller is grasping. Allowing life (which includes all 'my' feelings thoughts and actions) to express itself in the clear light of awareness is non grasping.
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