Kassapa Buddha

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Kassapa Buddha

Postby Thanavuddho » Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:15 pm

:buddha1:

In Buddhist tradition, Kassapa (Pāli; Chinese 迦叶佛) is the name of a Buddha, the third of the five Buddhas of the present aeon (the Bhaddakappa or 'Fortunate Aeon'), and the sixth of the six Buddhas prior to the historical Buddha mentioned in the earlier parts of the Pali Canon(D.ii.7). In the Buddhist texts in Sanskrit, this Buddha is known as Kāśyapa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kassapa_Buddha

Hello everyone,

What historical time period did Kassapa Buddha live? It seems to me that he had to live in a different planet long time ago.

:reading:
“Tasmātihānanda, attadīpā viharatha attasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā, dhammadīpā dhammasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā.”(DN16)
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Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby clw_uk » Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:59 pm

The dates for him given in the pali text seem to suggest either very very early in earth history or possibly another planet



Either way he wouldnt have had a human form, since humans hadnt evolved then. If it was on earth this means there was once another intelligent race that evolved on earth in the ancient past but which all evidence of has now gone. If it was another planet then he obviously wouldnt have been human either



Thats if you take the traditional view



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Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby Thanavuddho » Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:41 pm

Hello clw_uk!!!

clw_uk wrote:The dates for him given in the pali text seem to suggest either very very early in earth history or possibly another planet


I don't see how in the early history of earth there could have been a fully developed human beings(far more developed than the current humans...).

Either way he wouldnt have had a human form, since humans hadnt evolved then.


What do you mean not human? All Buddhas are human and are enlightened in the human realm, this is my understanding. Meaby there has been an earth like planet with live and humans before this earth. This is my hypothesis.


If it was on earth this means there was once another intelligent race that evolved on earth in the ancient past but which all evidence of has now gone.


I don't see how this could have been possible considering the scientific data that we have...
If it was another planet then he obviously wouldnt have been human either


How so?

:anjali:
“Tasmātihānanda, attadīpā viharatha attasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā, dhammadīpā dhammasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā.”(DN16)
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Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:01 pm

Santeri wrote:I don't see how this could have been possible considering the scientific data that we have...
If it was another planet then he obviously wouldnt have been human either


How so?


Hi Santeri,

Until clw_uk answers, here's my take:

If it were another planet, the evolution would have been somewhat different and the being that eventually comes to dominate the planet and re-discover Dhamma would most likely look very different than a human. But it could still be a highly intelligent being never-the-less.

An aeon is described as something like taking a silk cloth and rubbing the top of a mountain with it every 100 years and by the time the mountain disintegrated, an aeon would have passed. Given that definition it is possible that it could be a different planet before this one. From astronomy we have pretty conclusive evidence / information that solar systems evolve and eventually perish and then re-constitute to form a new solar system with planets. Using that hypothesis, it would be compatible to the Brahmajala Sutta and also some of the claims of the 'humans' living to 8,000 years, standing as tall as a building, etc. that is mentioned during some of the previous Buddhas' dispensations.
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Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby Thanavuddho » Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:12 pm

Thank you for your post TheDhamma.

TheDhamma wrote:If it were another planet, the evolution would have been somewhat different and the being that eventually comes to dominate the planet and re-discover Dhamma would most likely look very different than a human.


More like devas? Still it is supposed to be in human realm? I will try to search the texts tomorrow...

An aeon is described as something like taking a silk cloth and rubbing the top of a mountain with it every 100 years and by the time the mountain disintegrated, an aeon would have passed. Given that definition it is possible that it could be a different planet before this one. From astronomy we have pretty conclusive evidence / information that solar systems evolve and eventually perish and then re-constitute to form a new solar system with planets. Using that hypothesis, it would be compatible to the Brahmajala Sutta and also some of the claims of the 'humans' living to 8,000 years, standing as tall as a building, etc. that is mentioned during some of the previous Buddhas' dispensations.


This seem like a possible scenario to me.

:anjali:
“Tasmātihānanda, attadīpā viharatha attasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā, dhammadīpā dhammasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā.”(DN16)
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Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:25 pm

Hi Santeri,

See MN81: The Potter Ghatikara, for the Buddha's acount of meeting Kassapa in a previous life (as Jotipala). I find the description of Ghatikara (a non-returner) very inspiring.
http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... ra-e1.html
The young man Jotipala and the potter Ghatikara approached the Blessed One Kassapa, perfect, rightfully enlightened, worshipped and sat on a side. Then the potter Ghatikara said thus to the Blessed One Kassapa, perfect rightfully enlightened. `Venerable sir, this is my loveable friend and assistant Jotipala, give him the going forth. `. The young man Jotipala received the going forth and the higher ordination from the Blessed One Kassapa, perfect, rightfully enlightened. Ānanda, the Blessed One Kassapa, perfect rightfully enlightened two weeks after confering the higher ordination on the young man Jotipala, went on a tour to Benares, and gradually reached Benares.

Ajahn Brahm's talk about this Sutta here: http://www.bswa.org/audio/podcast/SuttaStudy.rss.php
MN81 Ghatikara Sutta
Monday, 12 May 2008 4:00 p.m.
Ajahn Brahm explains the Ghatikara Sutta (Ghatikara, the Potter)
is also good...

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Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby clw_uk » Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:38 pm

Hey




clw_uk wrote:
The dates for him given in the pali text seem to suggest either very very early in earth history or possibly another planet

I don't see how in the early history of earth there could have been a fully developed human beings(far more developed than the current humans...).



Well there wouldnt have been human beings but intelligence doesnt have to equal human. There could have been another sentient life-form that evolved on this planet but died out during one of the many mass extincitons that plague Earth. Or, in the case of your question, you could just go an and say that the story of kasspa refers to a non-human Buddha on a different planet. So it would be a species that evolved to intelligence but wasnt biologically human, for example if the sentient species on that planet evolved down a reptilian route instead of mammalian (which most likely would have happened on earth if the dinosaurs didnt die out). Even if it came from a mammalian line there is no guarantee that it would be an intelligent Ape (Human). I did read somewhere in a book on evolution that there is an understanding that if somehow you could reverse time and play evolution forward again, you wouldnt even get the same speicies developing.


What do you mean not human? All Buddhas are human and are enlightened in the human realm, this is my understanding. Meaby there has been an earth like planet with live and humans before this earth. This is my hypothesis.


If we are talking about other planets, the likelihood that the intelligent life that devlops there would be biologically human is doubtful. There is no reason why it couldnt be reptilian or avian or something else. My understanding is that the Buddha was refering to intelligent "self aware" beings that live in the middle existence between not to much suffering but not to much pleasure. A psychological "world" not a material one. For example animals exist in the "human world" physically but not mentally (of course we are all animals because we are apes but in this instance I mean intelligent, "self" aware animals)


If it was on earth this means there was once another intelligent race that evolved on earth in the ancient past but which all evidence of has now gone.

I don't see how this could have been possible considering the scientific data that we have...


Well one certain thing about this universe is that nothing is certain :lol: . Science is constantly updating itself when evidence etc comes in, so because science has no fossil/archaeological evidence of another intelligent speices existing before humans doesnt mean it couldnt have been. Its not to say its a definite either but it is possible


If it was another planet then he obviously wouldnt have been human either

How so?


There is no set layout for evolution, it depends on many differnt factors so you wont get the same species evolving on every planet. They will all be different, so the intelligent life that is mostly likely out there will most likely not be human. As I said earlier they could be reptilian, avian, insectoid etc or some thing else altogether




On a side note what I said above could mean that Kassapa wouldnt have to have been male

(n.b. editing was spelling mistakes)

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Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby jcsuperstar » Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:23 pm

define human in this context.

from what we know, human in the buddhist sense is the realm higher than animals, hell beings and ghosts, and lower than heavenly beings. that really doesnt mean human has the exact same meaning as when we say human in everyday language does it?





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Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby Individual » Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:45 am

clw_uk wrote:The dates for him given in the pali text seem to suggest either very very early in earth history or possibly another planet

Who regards Buddhist cosmology as literal and what planet do THEY live on?

jcsuperstar wrote:define human in this context.

from what we know, human in the buddhist sense is the realm higher than animals, hell beings and ghosts, and lower than heavenly beings. that really doesnt mean human has the exact same meaning as when we say human in everyday language does it?

But then that would be pretty convoluted, to use the words "human" and "animal" and not to refer to human and animals. If it's truly something so totally different, why wouldn't the Buddha create an entirely new term or at some point clearly state that he was using these words in such a different way?
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Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby jcsuperstar » Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:47 am

cause maybe making up a new word and telling stories about other beings that people in his time wouldnt already know about wouldnt be condusive to the path?

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Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby BlackBird » Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:32 am

clw_uk wrote:On a side note what I said above could mean that Kassapa wouldnt have to have been male


Hi Craig

This might be of interest:
http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?tit ... asambuddha
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby clw_uk » Sat Oct 17, 2009 12:24 pm

Hey guys


The dates for him given in the pali text seem to suggest either very very early in earth history or possibly another planet

Who regards Buddhist cosmology as literal and what planet do THEY live on?



Personally I dont take the literal view. My answer was framed though as if it was a given, based on what the texts and tradition has said. I personally think its more likely that the dates were simply exaggerated but thats just my opinion



define human in this context.

from what we know, human in the buddhist sense is the realm higher than animals, hell beings and ghosts, and lower than heavenly beings. that really doesnt mean human has the exact same meaning as when we say human in everyday language does it?


A state of mind between not to much suffering and not to much happiness and is somewhat rational. For example a person with depression is in a hell realm



here is a copy of a post I made a while ago on ZFI that might help explain my understanding about human realms and hell realms etc




One of them is the use of the word "loka" which translates as "world","cosmos" or "realm" so hell realm is hell loka

Buddhadhamma has a specific meaning of this term, it doesnt mean the physical world but how we perceive the world


For example


"that in the world by which one is a perceiver of the world, a conceiver of the world - this is called the world in the noble ones discipline"

SN - 1190 - book of the six sense media


and

Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One: "'The world, the world'1 it is said. In what respect does the word 'world' apply?

"Insofar as it disintegrates,2 monk, it is called the 'world.' Now what disintegrates? The eye disintegrates. Forms disintegrate. Consciousness at the eye disintegrates. Contact at the eye disintegrates. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too disintegrates.

"The ear disintegrates. Sounds disintegrate...

"The nose disintegrates. Aromas disintegrate...

"The tongue disintegrates. Tastes disintegrate...

"The body disintegrates. Tactile sensations disintegrate...

"The intellect disintegrates. Ideas disintegrate. Consciousness at the intellect consciousness disintegrates. Contact at the intellect disintegrates. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too disintegrates.

"Insofar as it disintegrates, it is called the 'world.'"


and also

[When this was said, the Blessed One responded:] "I tell you, friend, that it is not possible by traveling to know or see or reach a far end of the cosmos where one does not take birth, age, die, pass away, or reappear. But at the same time, I tell you that there is no making an end of suffering & stress without reaching the end of the cosmos. Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos, the origination of the cosmos, the cessation of the cosmos, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of the cosmos."


Now if we look at D.O.

We all know that this sense of "I" comes to be via clinging. "I am body" is clinging to body, no clinging there is no "I am"

So clinging leads to "I am". If we look at paticcasamuppada it states

clinging
becoming
birth

Therefore if we follow this its obvious that in Buddhadhamma clinging leads to birth of "I" or "I am" and not birth of aggregates


To bring in some Ajahn Chah here

We must see that there is no reason to be born. Born in what way?
Born into gladness: When we get something we like we are glad over
it. If there is no clinging to that gladness there is no birth; if there is
clinging, this is called ‘birth’. So if we get something, we aren’t born
(into gladness). If we lose, then we aren’t born (into sorrow). This
is the birthless and the deathless. Birth and death are both founded in
clinging to and cherishing the san?kha¯ras.

So the Buddha said. “There is no more becoming for me, finished
is the holy life, this is my last birth.” There! He knew the birthless and
the deathless. This is what the Buddha constantly exhorted his disciples
to know. This is the right practice. If you don’t reach it, if you don’t
reach the Middle Way, then you won’t transcend suffering


Therefore in Buddhadhamma, as i understand, when the Buddha states "reborn in hell realm" it means that clinging has lead to birth of an "I" into a mode of percieving the external world via the six sense media in a negative way

which goes with this sutta

It's a gain for you, monks, a great gain, that you've gained the opportunity to live the holy life. I have seen a hell named 'Contacts Sixfold Base.' Whatever form one sees there with the eye is undesirable, never desirable; displeasing, never pleasing; disagreeable, never agreeable. Whatever sound one hears there with the ear... Whatever aroma one smells there with the nose... Whatever flavor one tastes there with the tongue... Whatever tactile sensation one touches there with the body... Whatever idea one cognizes there with the intellect is undesirable, never desirable; displeasing, never pleasing; disagreeable, never agreeable.

"It's a gain for you, monks, a great gain, that you've gained the opportunity to live the holy life. I have seen a heaven named "Contacts Six Fold Base.' Whatever form one sees there with the eye is desirable, never undesirable; pleasing, never displeasing; agreeable, never disagreeable. Whatever sound one hears there with the ear... Whatever aroma one smells there with the nose... Whatever flavor one tastes there with the tongue ... Whatever tactile sensation one touches there with the body... Whatever idea one cognizes there with the intellect is desirable, never undesirable; pleasing, never displeasing; agreeable, never disagreeable.

"It's a gain for you, monks, a great gain, that you've gained the opportunity to live the holy life."


Khana Sutta - SN



So when we read "reborn into hell" it means that clinging has lead to birth of "I" into a negative state, like when someone is depressed or full of self pity and therefor, tying in with the abandoning of speculative views, rebirth doesnt mean after death in Buddhadhamma but something else that, for me, is far more profound


So you could say yes there is rebirth in the Buddhadhamma but its not the way people usually think of it (well really there is no rebirth since there is nothing to repeat, there is only birth). I think problems arises when we view Buddhadhamma with wordly understandings



metta all
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Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby Thanavuddho » Sat Oct 17, 2009 12:49 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Santeri,

See MN81: The Potter Ghatikara, for the Buddha's acount of meeting Kassapa in a previous life (as Jotipala). I find the description of Ghatikara (a non-returner) very inspiring.
http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... ra-e1.html

Ajahn Brahm's talk about this Sutta here: http://www.bswa.org/audio/podcast/SuttaStudy.rss.php
MN81 Ghatikara Sutta
Monday, 12 May 2008 4:00 p.m.
Ajahn Brahm explains the Ghatikara Sutta (Ghatikara, the Potter)
is also good...

Mike


Thank you Mike. I will listen that Ajahn Brahms talk today.

:smile:
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Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby Thanavuddho » Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:37 pm

clw_uk wrote:Hey guys
To bring in some Ajahn Chah here

We must see that there is no reason to be born. Born in what way?
Born into gladness: When we get something we like we are glad over
it. If there is no clinging to that gladness there is no birth; if there is
clinging, this is called ‘birth’. So if we get something, we aren’t born
(into gladness). If we lose, then we aren’t born (into sorrow). This
is the birthless and the deathless. Birth and death are both founded in
clinging to and cherishing the san?kha¯ras.

So the Buddha said. “There is no more becoming for me, finished
is the holy life, this is my last birth.” There! He knew the birthless and
the deathless. This is what the Buddha constantly exhorted his disciples
to know. This is the right practice. If you don’t reach it, if you don’t
reach the Middle Way, then you won’t transcend suffering


Only practice can resolve doubt

When people asked Luang Pu about death and rebirth, or about past and future lives, he was never interested in answering. Or if some people argued that they didn't believe that heaven or hell really existed, he never tried to reason with them or to cite evidence to defeat their arguments. Instead, he'd give them this piece of advice:

"People who practice the Dhamma don't have to give any thought to past or future lives, or to heaven or hell. All they have to do is be firm and intent on practicing correctly in line with the principles of virtue, concentration, and discernment. If there really are 16 levels of heaven as they say in the texts, people who practice well are sure to rise to those levels. Or if heaven and nibbana don't exist, people who practice well don't lack for benefits here and now. They're sure to be happy, as human beings on a high level.

"Listening to what other people say, looking things up in the texts, can't resolve your doubts. You have to put effort into the practice to give rise to clear insight knowledge. That's when doubt will be totally resolved on its own."

"Gifts He Left Behind: The Dhamma Legacy of Ajaan Dune Atulo", compiled by Phra Bodhinandamuni, translated from the Thai by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight, June 7, 2009, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html.
“Tasmātihānanda, attadīpā viharatha attasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā, dhammadīpā dhammasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā.”(DN16)
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Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby Thanavuddho » Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:45 pm

clw_uk wrote:Hey
If we are talking about other planets, the likelihood that the intelligent life that devlops there would be biologically human is doubtful.


They would have had the five khandas, the six senses and so on. What is the definition of a human in buddhist context? Manussa loka.
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Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby Thanavuddho » Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:48 pm

Hi Individual,

Individual wrote:Who regards Buddhist cosmology as literal and what planet do THEY live on?


I don't rule it out immediately. I don't think Kassapa Buddha was an alien like in a Hollywood movie. I think he was lot like humans are nowadays.

:anjali:
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Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby clw_uk » Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:05 pm

Santeri wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Hey
If we are talking about other planets, the likelihood that the intelligent life that devlops there would be biologically human is doubtful.


They would have had the five khandas, the six senses and so on. What is the definition of a human in buddhist context? Manussa loka.




Who says they would have six senses? They could have five or four or eight. It all depeneds on evolution
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Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:16 pm

Hi Santeri,
well after looking at the other posts here, I think it would be worth mentioning that animal realm is equivilent to what is termed in philosophy as beasts - irrational beingsto put it another way, human beings are considdered rational beings and thus not anamalistic.

we knowtoday that there are many animals (humans beings being animals) who are considered or known to be inteligent, and as one tibetan teachr has said "they can not become enlightened because they cant bow to a buddha statue" is a complete reidiculous assumption, any being who has the ability to practice the actual path, not the outwadly recognisable aspects of it such as rituals can become enlightened unless they are beasts (animals) they can become enlightened in this life.

this question rightfully asks us to consider what is a human (even though this isn't necesarily the OP's intent in my mind), and also asks us to consider out own nature, and tendancies in the form of how concieted we are.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby Thanavuddho » Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:26 pm

clw_uk wrote:Who says they would have six senses? They could have five or four or eight. It all depeneds on evolution


What other senses could there be than the six senses?
“Tasmātihānanda, attadīpā viharatha attasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā, dhammadīpā dhammasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā.”(DN16)
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Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby Thanavuddho » Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:34 pm

Hello Manapa :smile:

Manapa wrote:Hi Santeri,
well after looking at the other posts here, I think it would be worth mentioning that animal realm is equivilent to what is termed in philosophy as beasts - irrational beingsto put it another way, human beings are considdered rational beings and thus not anamalistic.


It could be argued that human beings are form of animal, but the Buddha chose to give this animal specie it's own category: a human being, manussa. In the end, there is no hard distinctions between the beings in different realms, but there are some attributes that define what human is. What are these attributes exactly?
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