Kassapa Buddha

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby clw_uk » Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:46 pm

Santeri wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Who says they would have six senses? They could have five or four or eight. It all depeneds on evolution


What other senses could there be than the six senses?





Well we already know of animals on earth that have other senses, Electroreception and Echolocation for example


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroreception

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_echolocation



Life evolving on other planets could have other senses
“Happy is the man who has broken the chains which hurt the mind, and has given up worrying once and for all.” Ovid
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3308
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:11 pm

Well I don't know exact rfrences in the canon to what a 'human' is, but hve seen philosophic descriptions which tend o ignore the phisicl aspect as this an cause biological humans to be considered inhuman an example of this is views of many europeans to africans and other aboriginal peoples when they first encountered them (so to speak in some cases) or the so called vegetables due to mental capaity, either from a degeneration from atural causes such as dsease or trauma, or a birth abnormality.
to clasify a human, o more precisely what a human is, is incredibly difficult especially when you considder (as must be) all he variations a bioogical human has both physically and mentally, would you cosider a psychopath to be human, or someone with Bi-polarefective disorder, or other psychological probem? or would you counider someone born with no legs human or missing other physical attributes common to humans, human? and what if they had extra limbs or a severe ondition such as elepant man, or other the man who is turning into a tree (as the program described him)?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
User avatar
Cittasanto
 
Posts: 5687
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin

Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby Thanavuddho » Sat Oct 17, 2009 8:05 pm

clw_uk wrote:Well we already know of animals on earth that have other senses, Electroreception and Echolocation for example

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroreception

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_echolocation

Life evolving on other planets could have other senses


Could these be categorized under the other six senses, like hearing or touching..?
“Tasmātihānanda, attadīpā viharatha attasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā, dhammadīpā dhammasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā.”(DN16)
Forum: http://www.avoinsangha.fi
User avatar
Thanavuddho
 
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:00 pm
Location: Finland

Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby Thanavuddho » Sat Oct 17, 2009 8:42 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Santeri,

See MN81: The Potter Ghatikara, for the Buddha's acount of meeting Kassapa in a previous life (as Jotipala). I find the description of Ghatikara (a non-returner) very inspiring.
http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... ra-e1.html


In this sutta the world of Kassapa Buddha appears very similar to the historical India. It is very clear that the these beings are similar to humans.

Ajahn Brahm's talk about this Sutta here: http://www.bswa.org/audio/podcast/SuttaStudy.rss.php
MN81 Ghatikara Sutta
Monday, 12 May 2008 4:00 p.m.
Ajahn Brahm explains the Ghatikara Sutta (Ghatikara, the Potter)
is also good...


The idea that the bodhisatta was a once-returner when he was reborn last time, as suggested by this talk, does not make sens to me. Bhikkhu Ñanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi have useful notes on this sutta in their translation of MN, if I remember correctly.

:anjali:
“Tasmātihānanda, attadīpā viharatha attasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā, dhammadīpā dhammasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā.”(DN16)
Forum: http://www.avoinsangha.fi
User avatar
Thanavuddho
 
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:00 pm
Location: Finland

Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby Thanavuddho » Sat Oct 17, 2009 8:45 pm

“Tasmātihānanda, attadīpā viharatha attasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā, dhammadīpā dhammasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā.”(DN16)
Forum: http://www.avoinsangha.fi
User avatar
Thanavuddho
 
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:00 pm
Location: Finland

Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Oct 17, 2009 8:50 pm

Santeri wrote:The idea that the bodhisatta was a once-returner when he was reborn last time, as suggested by this talk, does not make sens to me. Bhikkhu Ñanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi have useful notes on this sutta in their translation of MN, if I remember correctly.

Yes, I'm not sure why Ajahn Brahm says that, it does not seem so important. The interesting point is that he was ordained under Kassapa. On the night of his awakening he recalled his past lives. Did his awakening depend on recalling Kassapa's teachings? In fact, I recall Ven Huifeng commenting on E-Sangha that this was the official position of some sects, but I don't remember the details.

Metta
Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10112
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby David N. Snyder » Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:07 am

Santeri wrote:In this sutta the world of Kassapa Buddha appears very similar to the historical India. It is very clear that the these beings are similar to humans.


Yeah, I know what you mean. The hypothesis some of us have engaged of it being another planet or prior solar system would probably be called a "Modern Theravada" interpretation.

If we take the literal position of what is written in the Buddhavamsa then all prior Samma-sam-buddhas were Indian, born in either the brahmin or warrior caste, enlightened in Bodh Gaya, and almost all under a tree. The trees described are mostly different species, including acacia and others, thus, all implying not only the Earth as we know it, but also restricted to the Indian sub-continent.
User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7947
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby clw_uk » Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:49 am

TheDhamma wrote:
Santeri wrote:In this sutta the world of Kassapa Buddha appears very similar to the historical India. It is very clear that the these beings are similar to humans.


Yeah, I know what you mean. The hypothesis some of us have engaged of it being another planet or prior solar system would probably be called a "Modern Theravada" interpretation.

If we take the literal position of what is written in the Buddhavamsa then all prior Samma-sam-buddhas were Indian, born in either the brahmin or warrior caste, enlightened in Bodh Gaya, and almost all under a tree. The trees described are mostly different species, including acacia and others, thus, all implying not only the Earth as we know it, but also restricted to the Indian sub-continent.




Which would contradict scientific fact about evolution and history, I cant see how you can have traditional Kassapa dates with modern science


For me either you accept that it wad a non-human intelligent species or another planet or you say it was just an exaggeration regarding dates


metta
“Happy is the man who has broken the chains which hurt the mind, and has given up worrying once and for all.” Ovid
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3308
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby Thanavuddho » Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:07 pm

Hello all,

There has to be a logical and real answer to the original question. The answer has to be in accordance with the empirical science. I see no other possibility, there has to have been a previous Buddha before Samana Gotama. And there has to be a future Buddha as well.

I know these questions are somewhat irrelevant for the practice of Dhamma.

:anjali:
“Tasmātihānanda, attadīpā viharatha attasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā, dhammadīpā dhammasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā.”(DN16)
Forum: http://www.avoinsangha.fi
User avatar
Thanavuddho
 
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:00 pm
Location: Finland

Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:32 am

Hi
there are three posibilities.
1 - he lived at a time we have no hisorical evidence of events for the end of the last ice age is a good choice for this time, or even earler, as their ere huma being then and a sophisticated culture is known to of existed in Japan although there is ome evidence for cultures around the world existing around the coast of india and other places
2 - he wasn't a homosapian but anther species of the great ape family (see my post above)
3 - alian (again see my post above and the Dhammas which makes this posibility less likely)
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
User avatar
Cittasanto
 
Posts: 5687
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin

Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby Individual » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:41 am

Isn't it also possible for a classification in Buddhism to be simply convoluted and beyond rational explanation?
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
Individual
 
Posts: 1970
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:19 am

Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby clw_uk » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:32 pm

Individual wrote:Isn't it also possible for a classification in Buddhism to be simply convoluted and beyond rational explanation?




I think that's the best explanation
“Happy is the man who has broken the chains which hurt the mind, and has given up worrying once and for all.” Ovid
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3308
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:43 pm

Individual wrote:Isn't it also possible for a classification in Buddhism to be simply convoluted and beyond rational explanation?


yes, but isn't it possible to have an explanation that can aid in putting aside things which are not necessarily usefull to the pactice, but nag in the back of the mind?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
User avatar
Cittasanto
 
Posts: 5687
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin

Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby Thanavuddho » Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:51 pm

-
Last edited by Thanavuddho on Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Tasmātihānanda, attadīpā viharatha attasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā, dhammadīpā dhammasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā.”(DN16)
Forum: http://www.avoinsangha.fi
User avatar
Thanavuddho
 
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:00 pm
Location: Finland

Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby Thanavuddho » Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:59 pm

Manapa wrote:
Individual wrote:Isn't it also possible for a classification in Buddhism to be simply convoluted and beyond rational explanation?


yes, but isn't it possible to have an explanation that can aid in putting aside things which are not necessarily usefull to the pactice, but nag in the back of the mind?


The question about the existence of previous Buddha is not essential for the practice of mindfulness etc... :smile:
“Tasmātihānanda, attadīpā viharatha attasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā, dhammadīpā dhammasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā.”(DN16)
Forum: http://www.avoinsangha.fi
User avatar
Thanavuddho
 
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:00 pm
Location: Finland

Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby PeterB » Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:08 pm

There is a tradition or what amounts to a tradition in the Indian subcontinent of adding lots of noughts to numbers as a way of emphasising a point. It is more a literary device than a precise mathmatically based statement. It is more frequently seen in the Vedas and in Mahayana Sutras where " a thousand or ten thousand or tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands" type statements are commonplace. The Pali Canon is not free of this kind of device. For what its worth I was taught that Kassapa Buddha was born on this planet in an earlier era, and to emphasise the fact that it was along time before Shakyamuni Buddha the time scale was exaggerated.

Certainly these kind of questions although interesting are not of the essence. They dont help remove the arrow.
PeterB
 
Posts: 3904
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby gavesako » Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:40 pm

Santeri wrote:Hi Individual,

Individual wrote:Who regards Buddhist cosmology as literal and what planet do THEY live on?


I don't rule it out immediately. I don't think Kassapa Buddha was an alien like in a Hollywood movie. I think he was lot like humans are nowadays.

:anjali:



Since you like Ajahn Plien, I heard one story about him when he came to visit Ajahn Brahm's monastery in Perth. He criticized the monks there for not having performed the "Removing Old Sima" ceremony before "Establishing New Sima" (boundary). This is done in places where, in the past, there was an old monastery which has become abandoned, and nobody knows where the Sima might be. Now because Simas should not overlap each other, it is necessary to first remove any old Simas and then establish a new one. But why should one bother to do this in Western Australia? Have the Aborigines ever followed Buddhism before the Westerners arrived there? Ajahn Plien's answer was that there might have been a monastery there at the time of Kassapa Buddha!

:buddha1:
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

ajahnchah.org - Teachings of Ajahn Chah in many languages
Dhammatube - Videos on Buddhist practice
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
User avatar
gavesako
 
Posts: 1346
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:16 pm
Location: England

Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:55 pm

gavesako wrote:Ajahn Plien's answer was that there might have been a monastery there at the time of Kassapa Buddha!


I was just playing around with some numbers and if we say that the time periods are off just a bit and say, put each dispensation at about 1,000 years we have:

1. 27,500 BCE . . .

18 10,500 BCE
19. 9500 BCE
20. 8500 BCE
21. 7500 BCE
22. 6500 BCE
23. 5500 BCE
24. 4500 BCE
25. 3500 BCE
26. 2500 BCE
27. 1500 BCE
28. 500 BCE

That is the first Buddha from the list of 28 attaining enlightenment and teaching at around 27,500 BCE which would still be when our species was developed with all of the faculties of the homo sapiens sapiens. But it would be slightly before the Agricultural Revolution.

Otherwise, there is still the other world, alien hypothesis . . .
User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7947
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby Thanavuddho » Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:14 pm

-
Last edited by Thanavuddho on Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Tasmātihānanda, attadīpā viharatha attasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā, dhammadīpā dhammasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā.”(DN16)
Forum: http://www.avoinsangha.fi
User avatar
Thanavuddho
 
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:00 pm
Location: Finland

Re: Kassapa Buddha

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:32 pm

Dear Venerable,
gavesako wrote:Since you like Ajahn Plien, I heard one story about him when he came to visit Ajahn Brahm's monastery in Perth. He criticized the monks there for not having performed the "Removing Old Sima" ceremony before "Establishing New Sima" (boundary). This is done in places where, in the past, there was an old monastery which has become abandoned, and nobody knows where the Sima might be. Now because Simas should not overlap each other, it is necessary to first remove any old Simas and then establish a new one. But why should one bother to do this in Western Australia? Have the Aborigines ever followed Buddhism before the Westerners arrived there? Ajahn Plien's answer was that there might have been a monastery there at the time of Kassapa Buddha!

Thank you for the interesting story. I believe that the "Revoving Old Sima" was done at our Wat, just in case...

Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10112
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

PreviousNext

Return to General Theravāda discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 6 guests