Jhana: sutta v commentary v abhidhamma

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Ben
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Jhana: sutta v commentary v abhidhamma

Post by Ben »

Hi all

Inspired by Sudarsha's post on the jhana thread in the meditation forum, I thought it would be useful to compare and contrast the salient attributes and observations of jhana in the suttas, the commentaries (particularly the vissudhimagga) and the Abhidhamma (or Abhidhamma commentaries).
sudarsha wrote:I don't know how to set up a new thread or rename this one, but I think thereductor's initial question: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2410" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; deserves much more attention. Can we work out clarity of understanding about "jhana" in different terms only relying upon the words of the oldest parts of the Pali Canon? Can we talk about jhana as if it were as "real" and ordinary as any other part of our practise, liberating it as a concept from conceptual limitations or the Visuddhimagga's limitations??????
I have placed the thread in the Classical section so that we can focus exclusively on the early textual evidence rather than a focus on personal experience.
Kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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BlackBird
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Re: Jhana: sutta v commentary v abhidhamma

Post by BlackBird »

Hi Ben

Here's an essay by Leigh Brasington called 'Interpretation of the Jhanas' which might provide some content to muse over:
http://www.leighb.com/jhanantp.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You might already have read it, I don't know.

Metta
Jack
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'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Re: Jhana: sutta v commentary v abhidhamma

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

The first thing that comes to mind is the difference between the four jhana classification of the suttas, and the five jhana classification of the commentaries. I forget, off the top of my head which sutta jhana is split into 2 in the commentaries. I suspect it's the 2nd.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Jhana: sutta v commentary v abhidhamma

Post by AdvaitaJ »

BlackBird wrote:Here's an essay by Leigh Brasington called 'Interpretation of the Jhanas' which might provide some content to muse over:
http://www.leighb.com/jhanantp.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Buried within that link (thanks, BlackBird!) is a broken link to a most revealing and helpful essay called The Mystery of the Breath Nimitta Or The Case of the Missing Simile by a Bhikku Sona in Canada. I found the document at the following URL. It has some very helpful potential explanations of some of the discrepancies (and resulting confusion). http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma/nimitta.html

Regards: AdvaitaJ
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Sudarsha
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Re: Jhana: sutta v commentary v abhidhamma

Post by Sudarsha »

Thanks, AdvaitaJ, for a more accessible link to Ajahn Sona's very useful essay.

I attended a teaching session with Leigh Brasington here in Toronto. I was surprised at how easy he made at least the first jhana seem. My own experience is that, yes, settling down, becoming content and tranquil is indeed a matter of no effort. I must research to see if Leigh has any audio guided meditations in this respect. However, I also feel very strongly that just settling down, just becoming content, just becoming tranquil is neither sufficient nor anything other than a potential trap: sort of like deciding to take a cruise ship to see the Mediterranean but getting off to sightsee at the first island and going no further.

As I read the Buddha's words, I see only one specific kind of "what to do" and that is let go. Otherwise, why would the Buddha have pointed us in the direction of understanding everything as only impermanent, unsatisfactory and selfless? I wonder if when the commentaries were put together and the material of the Visuddhimagga was catalogued - perhaps by that time already just a faint, vague kind of ego had crept into the teachings of the most charismatic of the elders? :shrug:

I do not know. At some point the message seemed to shift from "let go" to "like this" ... and I am fully aware that I am completely out of my depth with respect to any of the scholarship I should probably take much more seriously ... in my university daze, we called it scholarshit and thought we were being ever so very clever. After all, in the Buddha's time there were only two baskets of the Teaching ... actually, no writing had been done, so there were really no baskets, but only two parts: Dhamma and vinaya. The whole idea of abhidhamma seems to have crept in later as if, perhaps, some of the elders failed to notice that no further explanations were necessary as the Buddha had already explained everything. I'm demonstrating my profound ignorance of the abhidhamma material, teased out of the Dhamma and vinaya, which I know is of extraordinary value to us today.

:thinking:
Sudarsha
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Re: Jhana: sutta v commentary v abhidhamma

Post by mikenz66 »

Since this is the Classical section it's not clear to me how to proceed with this particular discussion, since "Classically" we'd consider the Commentaries to be Canonical, unless they contradicted the Suttas (which Ven Sona actually suggests is the case, at least for the Visuddhimagga, but presumably the discussion in the Visuddhimagga is based on the Canonical Commentaries).

However, it's interesting that Ajahn Brahm, who claims to place much more weight on the Suttas than the Commentaries, describes the nimittas and jhanas in a way that is quite consistent with the Visuddhimagga (See "Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond", AKA "Happiness Through Meditation" pdf of some of it here: http://www.bswa.org/zencart/index.php?m ... cts_id=187).
Stage Six:
Experiencing the Beautiful Nimitta

This sixth stage is achieved when one lets go of the body, thought, and
the five senses (including the awareness of the breath) so completely that
only a beautiful mental sign, a nimitta, remains.

This pure mental object is a real object in the landscape of the mind
(citta), and when it appears for the first time, it is extremely strange.One
simply has not experienced anything like it before. Nevertheless, the
mental activity we call perception searches through its memory bank of
life experiences for something even a little bit similar. For most meditators,
this disembodied beauty, this mental joy, is perceived as a beautiful
light. Some see a white light, some a golden star, some a blue pearl, and
so on. But it is not a light. The eyes are closed, and the sight consciousness
has long been turned off. It is the mind consciousness freed for the
first time from the world of the five senses. It is like the full moon—
here standing for the radiant mind, coming out from behind the clouds—
here standing for the world of the five senses. It is the mind manifesting
—it is not a light,but for most it appears as a light. It is perceived as a light
because this imperfect description is the best that perception can offer.
On the other hand, another Sutta emphasier, Thanissaro Bhikkhu, paints a very different picture in "Wings to Awakening", agreeing with Ven. Sona.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ml#part3-f" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Part of the controversy over this question may be explained by the fact that the commentarial literature defines jhana in terms that bear little resemblance to the canonical description. The Path of Purification — the cornerstone of the commentarial system — takes as its paradigm for meditation practice a method called kasina, in which one stares at an external object until the image of the object is imprinted in one's mind. The image then gives rise to a countersign that is said to indicate the attainment of threshold concentration, a necessary prelude to jhana. The text then tries to fit all other meditation methods into the mold of kasina practice, so that they too give rise to countersigns, but even by its own admission, breath meditation does not fit well into the mold: with other methods, the stronger one's focus, the more vivid the object and the closer it is to producing a sign and countersign; but with the breath, the stronger one's focus, the harder the object is to detect. As a result, the text states that only Buddhas and Buddhas' sons find the breath a congenial focal point for attaining jhana.

None of these assertions have any support in the Canon. Although a practice called kasina is mentioned tangentially in some of the discourses, the only point where it is described in any detail [MN 121; MFU, pp. 82-85] makes no mention of staring at an object or gaining a countersign. If breath meditation were congenial only to Buddhas and their sons, there seems little reason for the Buddha to have taught it so frequently and to such a wide variety of people. If the arising of a countersign were essential to the attainment of jhana, one would expect it to be included in the steps of breath meditation and in the graphic analogies used to describe jhana, but it isn't. Some Theravadins insist that questioning the commentaries is a sign of disrespect for the tradition, but it seems to be a sign of greater disrespect for the Buddha — or the compilers of the Canon — to assume that he or they would have left out something absolutely essential to the practice.

All of these points seem to indicate that what jhana means in the commentaries is something quite different from what it means in the Canon. Because of this difference we can say that the commentaries are right in viewing their type of jhana as unnecessary for Awakening, but Awakening cannot occur without the attainment of jhana in the canonical sense.
Mike
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Re: Jhana: sutta v commentary v abhidhamma

Post by Ben »

ok, so what I am hearing is that this thread is better placed elsewhere...
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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Sudarsha
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Re: Jhana: sutta v commentary v abhidhamma

Post by Sudarsha »

HI, Ben

Where to put it??? I think it is an "absolute" that experience and "writing" go hand in glove. Which is the hand and which the glove may not always be clear. But, at least in my experience, commentary and experience, sutta and experience, sutta and commentary - are inseparable; I cannot fathom one without the other (although I am less likely to fathom commentary than almost anything else).

I was contemplating, earlier, the "scholar" who knows everything about Michelangelo da Caravaggio, but has never bothered to look at one of the paintings. Upon seeing one it might be entirely probably that he would dismiss it as not something as good as he knows Caravaggio could do. I have known at least one ordained and active teacher who sort of dismissed meditation and another (who took ordination under Ajahn Chah) who outright said that we don't need to do jhana!

As experience from sitting grows, I increasingly find that I tend to want to rewrite (in the margin) how many authors explain things. I do not feel they are wrong; but I clearly feel they are not explaining my experiences, at least not the way I understand them ... but I also am aware that I cannot simply set out to have the experiences they describe - I can only strive to assure that I am following the directions laid down by the Buddha and then try to understand what happens as a result.

I do not know if this is at all meaningful or helpful with respect to where this thread should be located. I am convinced, however, that experience and explanation have to inform one another.
Sudarsha
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Re: Jhana: sutta v commentary v abhidhamma

Post by Ben »

Hi Sudarsha
I moved the thread from the Classical to the General Theravada to accomodate many different perspectives on jhana, including personal experience. I wrongly assumed that you were interested in a purely textual analysis of the ancient literature - which is what the Classical section is for. In this forum you will be able to engage in some textual analysis of the early texts, provide your own personal experience as well as provide your own insights and those of others.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Sudarsha
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Re: Jhana: sutta v commentary v abhidhamma

Post by Sudarsha »

Thanks, Ben

I want to apologize for being unclear and causing some disruption in the smooth flow of things.
Sudarsha
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Re: Jhana: sutta v commentary v abhidhamma

Post by Ben »

No problem, Sudarsha!
With that. let's return to the subject of jhana!
metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Sudarsha
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Re: Jhana: sutta v commentary v abhidhamma

Post by Sudarsha »

Thanks, Ben

I am thinking of one of Thanissaro Bhikkhu's essays (One Tool among Many http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... etool.html). I remember very clearly the first time I read this and felt very surprised that the Buddha wasn't teaching two separate things or two different things. I read this soon after a very senior monastic said flat out that we didn't bother about jhana. I suppose there's nothing like being told not to do something or not to be curious about something! Because that now seems a turning point in my practise.

I'm trying to put together for my own reference an outline of what I have learnt and from whom and then shuffle that into what I consider a reasonable and pragmatic order ... which of course can only be the order most reasonable temporary working order for me. Going back to material I have already mentioned, it seems that one has to begin by intellectually understanding what "mindfulness" is all about without becoming like the expert on Caravaggio who never looked at a Caravaggio painting! Then, one should develop full mindfulness/awareness of breathing. Here Larry Rosenberg was very helpful in teaching me (Breath by Breath) about belly breathing. Up until that point, after many years of meditation, I was still meditating without actually fully relaxing, letting go physically.

Then, of course, the other factors of satipatthana need to be intellectually understood (and some of the standard definitions simply do not work for me and I have littered much marginal space in texts with micrographia explaining to myself why this or that word chosen by the author isn't the choice I would have made).

Here is where I was very surprised to find my thinking converting from thinking that vipassana and insight meditation were the key to penetrating the mystery of samsara! This was my detour through the paths of Mahamudra and Dzogchen until it dawned on me (and maybe that's a signal to get out'cher red flags???) that it wasn't about vipassana and insight at all, but about simply being aware of awareness, aware of mindfulness until there was just mindfulness.

I often wonder how many words of his own two teachers the Buddha was repeating when he defined samma samadhi. I have do doubt that he understood precisely what he was saying/teaching and his immediate followers did, as well. Yet, and here's a difficulty I am wrestling with, did the elders remember the words long after their direct association with direct experience was not so clearly understood?

I don't know how, in any way, to articulate my present experience. I only know that, as far as I think I am able at this time (yep, I have hedging down to a near science) to portray it, it is flowing from my understanding of the Buddha's words: master breathing awareness, apply that awareness to the four foundations of awareness, let go, always let go. Letting go is facilitated by the intellectual understanding that all things lack permanency, that all things are incapable of proving anything but transitory notions of satisfaction and no one and no thing possess anything that can be interpreted as an immutable essence.

I am, at this point, content that I am experience jhana/dhyana. I only know, at this time, that I should persist in letting go.

Does this make any useful sense at all?

corrections, a swat, smack up side the head, suggestions ... it's all good, all welcome
Sudarsha
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Re: Jhana: sutta v commentary v abhidhamma

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Sudarsha,
Sudarsha wrote: I remember very clearly the first time I read this and felt very surprised that the Buddha wasn't teaching two separate things or two different things. I read this soon after a very senior monastic said flat out that we didn't bother about jhana.
Though the practise I do is not oriented towards jhana, my teachers have never been negative about developing high degrees of concentration. Their only warning is that when I find myself in a blissful or equanimous state I should be sure to remain conscious of the bliss, equanimity, etc.

Which agrees with your statement:
Sudarsha wrote: I only know, at this time, that I should persist in letting go.
Mike
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Re: Jhana: sutta v commentary v abhidhamma

Post by AdvaitaJ »

Sudarsha,

I don't know if your last post was specifically for Ben or not, but...oh well, here goes anyway.

I agree with what (I think :thumbsup: ) you said, especially the part about letting go. I've had similar thoughts lately, but along the lines of there being a predisposition among some of us to "over complicate" things or "over think" the situation. Though hard to do, it does seem that the basics are straightforward; clinging leads to suffering. With regards to the subject of this thread, jhana, the things I've read always reiterate its usefulness for furthering the practice and all caution against viewing jhana as an end unto itself.

Regards: AdvaitaJ
The birds have vanished down the sky. Now the last cloud drains away.
We sit together, the mountain and me, until only the mountain remains.
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Re: Jhana: sutta v commentary v abhidhamma

Post by BlackBird »

Good postings :goodpost:
They make for good reading.
Thank you all.

:anjali:
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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