Mundane & supramundane view

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Ingle
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Mundane & supramundane view

Post by Ingle »

I'm just trying to test my understanding of mundane right view (Lokiya) and supramundane right view (Lokuttara) to see if I've got this right.

Mundane right view is having an understanding of the four noble truths, the law of kamma and dependant origination. This would be understood mainly on an intellectual basis as the person viewing them would still have there understanding mired by taints.

Supramundane right view would come from understanding these based on an experiential basis and would come from someone who has entered the stream and so no longer effected by the taints.

Have kept the descriptions pretty basic and imple rather than going into to much detail as I just wanted to see if I was following this correctly. Any help would be great full, or if I just have the complete wring end of the stick if you could point me in the right direction that would be great
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Mkoll
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Re: Mundane & supramundane view

Post by Mkoll »

Hi Ingle,

Does this passage from MN 117 help?
"And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions [of becoming]; there is right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

"And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.

"And what is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, the path factor of right view[1] in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
SarathW
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Re: Mundane & supramundane view

Post by SarathW »

Hi Ingle
Welcome to Dhamma Wheel.
Mkoll gave you a great answer.
With that in mind I would say what you said in OP and your understanding is correct.
It is the gradual training.
:)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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samseva
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Re: Mundane & supramundane view

Post by samseva »

Supermundane (lukuttara) only has to do with any of the four noble fruitions and paths.
I tell you, O monks, there are 2 kinds of right view: the understanding that it is good to give alms and offerings, that both good and evil actions will bear fruit and will be followed by results.... This, O monks, is a view which, though still subject to the cankers, is meritorious, yields worldly fruits, and brings good results. But whatever there is of wisdom, of penetration, of right view conjoined with the path, the holy path being pursued, this is called the supermundane right view (lokuttara-sammā-diṭṭhi), which is not of the world, but which is supermundane and conjoined with the path.”
lokiya: ‘mundane’, are all those states of consciousness and mental factors—arising in the worldling, as well as in the Noble One—which are not associated with the supermundane (lokuttara; s. the foll.) paths and fruitions of sotāpatti, etc. See ariyapuggala, A.

lokuttara: ‘supermundane’, is a term for the 4 paths and 4 fruitions of sotāpatti, etc. (s. ariya-puggala), with Nibbāna as ninth. Hence one speaks of ‘9 supermundane things’ (nava-lokuttara-dhamma). Cf. prec.
Source: Nyanatiloka Thera's Buddhist Dictionary.
Ingle
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Re: Mundane & supramundane view

Post by Ingle »

Mkoll wrote:Hi Ingle,

Does this passage from MN 117 help?
"And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions [of becoming]; there is right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

"And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.

"And what is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, the path factor of right view[1] in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.
I had read this passage before, but just confused me a little bit, which is why I was trying to put it into my own words really. Sometimes I can get a bit lost with what a sutta is sometimes trying to express.
Ingle
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Re: Mundane & supramundane view

Post by Ingle »

samseva wrote:Supermundane (lukuttara) only has to do with any of the four noble fruitions and paths.
I tell you, O monks, there are 2 kinds of right view: the understanding that it is good to give alms and offerings, that both good and evil actions will bear fruit and will be followed by results.... This, O monks, is a view which, though still subject to the cankers, is meritorious, yields worldly fruits, and brings good results. But whatever there is of wisdom, of penetration, of right view conjoined with the path, the holy path being pursued, this is called the supermundane right view (lokuttara-sammā-diṭṭhi), which is not of the world, but which is supermundane and conjoined with the path.”
lokiya: ‘mundane’, are all those states of consciousness and mental factors—arising in the worldling, as well as in the Noble One—which are not associated with the supermundane (lokuttara; s. the foll.) paths and fruitions of sotāpatti, etc. See ariyapuggala, A.

lokuttara: ‘supermundane’, is a term for the 4 paths and 4 fruitions of sotāpatti, etc. (s. ariya-puggala), with Nibbāna as ninth. Hence one speaks of ‘9 supermundane things’ (nava-lokuttara-dhamma). Cf. prec.
Source: Nyanatiloka Thera's Buddhist Dictionary.
Sorry if I sound dense, but what are the four noble fruitions?

Also, thanks for the replies
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Mkoll
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Re: Mundane & supramundane view

Post by Mkoll »

Ingle wrote:
Mkoll wrote:Hi Ingle,

Does this passage from MN 117 help?
"And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions [of becoming]; there is right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

"And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.

"And what is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, the path factor of right view[1] in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.
I had read this passage before, but just confused me a little bit, which is why I was trying to put it into my own words really. Sometimes I can get a bit lost with what a sutta is sometimes trying to express.
I agree that they can be confusing. In this sutta, I think mundane right view is pretty straightforward: adopt this view to make merit. But supramundane right view is confusing here because I'm not sure if it applies to the arahant only or all Noble Ones. "Without effluents" implies arahantship because only arahants are completely without effluents. But supramundane right view as part of the Noble Eightfold Path is possessed by all Noble Ones AFAIK.

When faced by sutta situations like this, I take the utilitarian route. What's useful and practical for me where I'm at? I'll use that and file the rest away for later if it's ever needed. I'm not going to try to fit everything about Buddhist doctrine I know together into a conceptual superstructure where everything makes perfect sense. I think that's a lost cause because one runs into inevitable contradictions and it's not where the rubber hits the road anyway.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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mikenz66
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Re: Mundane & supramundane view

Post by mikenz66 »

Ingle wrote: Sorry if I sound dense, but what are the four noble fruitions?
The attainment of stream entry, once-returner, non-returner, and arahant.

Here is a list of previous discussions on MN118:
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/mn ... -wheel/620
And discussions by Piya Tan and Vens Analyo and Bodhi:
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/mn ... a-tan/1351" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/ma ... alayo/2166" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/mn ... stery/1247" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Mike
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mikenz66
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Re: Mundane & supramundane view

Post by mikenz66 »

From one of the above links:
The Mahācattārīsaka-sutta in the Light of its Parallels
— Tracing the Beginnings of Abhidharmic Thought
Anālayo

With the present article I study the Mahācattārīsaka-sutta of the Majjhima-
nikāya, based on a comparison with its Chinese and Tibetan parallels.
The Mahācattārīsaka-sutta is a discourse of particular signifi­cance in the
Pāli canon, as it is the only canonical instance in the four Nikāyas that
pre­sents a supramundane version of the path-factors. This presentation is
not found in the Chinese and Tibetan parallels.
...
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/ma ... alayo/2166
Piya Tan quotes this:
(C) ABHIDHAMMA SOURCE. LS Cousins, in his article on “Vitakka/Vitarka and Vicra: Stages of
samdhi in Buddhism and Yoga,” says that the sutta is
an abhidhamma-style analysis of the Eightfold Path. In fact the sutta reads suspiciously as if it
were itself based on the Dhammasagai, but if so it is difficult to explain why no additional
sources can be found for some of the terms. We must then assume that this sutta is the source of
the Dhammasagai [mnemonic] register [for technical terms] and presumably much of the
methodology of the Dhammasagai...
(Indo-Iranian Journal 35 1992:138)
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/mn ... a-tan/1351
And, as mentioned, there are a number of discussions at Dhamma Wheel about whether or not those are "leakage" from later Abhidhamma and Commentary:
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/mn ... -wheel/620

It's not at all surprising that this passage is confusing. It's a matter of some debate.

:anjali:
Mike
SarathW
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Re: Mundane & supramundane view

Post by SarathW »

The following chart may some help.
This is Abhidhamma analysis.
http://www.arrowriver.ca/dhamma/abhi2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick=
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 647&hilit=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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