Why do I want Nibbana?

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Kaneki
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Why do I want Nibbana?

Post by Kaneki »

After digging at it for a while, I can't understand why Freedom from suffering is worth it?
"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with equanimity, that is an affliction for him...
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Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant."
Definition of pleasant: "Giving pleasure; pleasing in manner"

Now when you consider "with the abandoning of pleasure & stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress" you see that from there onward, pleasure is gone, so such things as peasant abiding...or anything at all for that matter. It's almost as though people hold this idea that the Buddha is within infinite rapture and peace, to experience peace means experiencing what it isn't, peace as well as pleasure or pleasantries are bound by co-dependent origination, this means you no longer have anything to do with it. So right now, instead of imagining a being at peace, I see something akin to a fully conscious log uncaring whether it's conscious or not that may have a pleasant abiding to us perceptive, feeling folks, but unfortunately for the log, doesn't get to enjoy or perceive it. If my understanding of the sutta is correct, there was no reason to mention anything about pleasant abiding at all. Why not call it "Path to the cessation of the re-occurance of sensation" or "Forget your razor blade, here's how to really end it!"? So now I feel I'm left to decide between satisfaction and dissatisfaction or neither, it's not like you will get some super duper transcendental set of sensual abilities to enjoy. I understand, that as a Buddhist, I'm being doubtful or following thought with more thought, but I can't understand the benefit in ending suffering if it means everything including anything transcendentally experienced loses it's value. I guess in saying this I can't call myself a Buddhist even if what I experience of it has been true. Please correct my confusion, or tell me the value in seeking this?
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Nicolas
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Re: Why do I want Nibbana?

Post by Nicolas »

These might be useful:
[url=http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.059.than.html]Bahuvedanīya Sutta[/url] (MN 59) wrote: Now it's possible, Ananda, that some wanderers of other persuasions might say, 'Gotama the contemplative speaks of the cessation of perception & feeling and yet describes it as pleasure. What is this? How can this be?' When they say that, they are to be told, 'It's not the case, friends, that the Blessed One describes only pleasant feeling as included under pleasure. Wherever pleasure is found, in whatever terms, the Blessed One describes it as pleasure.'
[url=https://suttacentral.net/en/an9.34]Nibbāna Sutta[/url] (AN 9.34) wrote: I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels’ Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, “This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant.”

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, “But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?”

“Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.
JohnK
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Re: Why do I want Nibbana?

Post by JohnK »

kaneki, just so you knoiw, the quotes you provide are not about nibbana but about certain meditative states that may be attained BEFORE Nibanna.
The arahant has been described as "...his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable, still feels pleasure and pain. It is the destruction of lust, hatred and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana element with residue remaining." (Residue remaining means he is not dead yet.) I just grabbed this quote from Bodhi's In The Buddha's Words, p.366; he references It 44;38.
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
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dhammacoustic
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Re: Why do I want Nibbana?

Post by dhammacoustic »

Kaneki wrote:After digging at it for a while, I can't understand why Freedom from suffering is worth it?
It is not a matter of worth.

It is a choice for people, who are tired of existence and ignorance.
santa100
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Re: Why do I want Nibbana?

Post by santa100 »

In MN 75, the Buddha used quite a graphic simile to make a point about sensual pleasure:
Suppose, Māgandiya, there was a leper with sores and blisters on his limbs, being devoured by worms, scratching the scabs off the openings of his wounds with his nails, cauterising his body over a burning charcoal pit. Then his friends and companions, his kinsmen and relatives, would bring a physician to treat him. The physician would make medicine for him, and by means of that medicine the man would be cured of his leprosy and would become well and happy, independent, master of himself, able to go where he likes. Then he might see another leper with sores and blisters on his limbs, being devoured by worms, scratching the scabs off the openings of his wounds with his nails, cauterising his body over a burning charcoal pit. What do you think, Māgandiya? Would that man envy that leper for his burning charcoal pit or his use of medicine?”

“No, Master Gotama. Why is that? Because when there is sickness, there is need for medicine, and when there is no sickness there is no need for medicine.”

“So too, Māgandiya, formerly when I lived the home life, I enjoyed myself, provided and endowed with the five cords of sensual pleasure: with forms cognizable by the eye…with tangibles cognizable by the body that are wished for, desired, agreeable, and likeable, connected with sensual desire and provocative of lust. On a later occasion, having understood as they actually are the gratification, the danger, and the escape in the case of sensual pleasures, I abandoned craving for sensual pleasures, I removed fever for sensual pleasures, and I abide without thirst, with a mind inwardly at peace. I see other beings who are not free from lust for sensual pleasures being devoured by craving for sensual pleasures, burning with fever for sensual pleasures, indulging in sensual pleasures, and I do not envy them nor do I delight therein. Why is that? Because there is, Māgandiya, a delight apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states, which surpasses even divine bliss. Since I take delight in that, I do not envy what is inferior, nor do I delight therein."
DC2R
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Re: Why do I want Nibbana?

Post by DC2R »

:goodpost:
Kaneki
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Re: Why do I want Nibbana?

Post by Kaneki »

Nicolas wrote:These might be useful:
[url=http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.059.than.html]Bahuvedanīya Sutta[/url] (MN 59) wrote: Now it's possible, Ananda, that some wanderers of other persuasions might say, 'Gotama the contemplative speaks of the cessation of perception & feeling and yet describes it as pleasure. What is this? How can this be?' When they say that, they are to be told, 'It's not the case, friends, that the Blessed One describes only pleasant feeling as included under pleasure. Wherever pleasure is found, in whatever terms, the Blessed One describes it as pleasure.'
[url=https://suttacentral.net/en/an9.34]Nibbāna Sutta[/url] (AN 9.34) wrote: I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels’ Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, “This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant.”

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, “But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?”

“Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.
So I assume the first sutta implies there is pleasure one can experience other than sense pleasure.

I remember the 2nd bit of text you quoted about the pleasure in feeling nothing, but I wanted to figure it was more a pleasure due to rapture, like that of the first jhana. I assumed this because of the mention of it's cause, that the pleasure was the effect of a cause, the cause being the absence of feeling and recollection of the experience of feeling and what comes with it. But now I understand there is much more to it than what I was seeing, I don't understand how, but it feels right, for now. Thanks.

JohnK Thanks for the clarification and reference.

Dhammacoustic, I suppose it's more a matter of me needing to develop clearer right view. Thanks

Santa100, I don't think I could have received a more perfect response. That sutta relieved my concerns despite my lack of fuller understanding. Thank you :)
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