No admirable friends?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
philosopher
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No admirable friends?

Post by philosopher »

Over the past few years I've become very serious about my practice. I've hesitated for about a year to post about this because I don't wish to post anything judgmental about anyone... but I'm involved in an offshoot of Thanissaro Bhikku's local sangha and have experienced that the most longstanding members of this offshoot are not serious practitioners. They criticize the idea of keeping the 8 precepts, etc, and clearly do not grasp some of the Tan Ajahn's more subtle teachings. I find them to actually be a negative influence on my practice.

I have one true dhamma friend - one whose practice I admire, but he lives in another country and I've little contact with him, especially now, when he's on an extended retreat.

I notice my practice flags from a lack of contact with individuals whose practice I admire. Does anyone have any advice for this? I feel that at this stage this is a becoming a critical point for me. Tan Ajahn has encouraged me to spend time at the monastery or to live near there but what I see as the "poor" quality of his students leads me to hesitate and also for practical reasons his suggestions would not be easy for me to implement.

A few other thoughts: I am deeply independent and a confident solo practitioner, so I know that with willpower I will do fine on my own. In fact, I"m in the process of arranging my life to move to a secluded area where I will have plenty of space and time to practice. It has taken me a couple years to arrange things this way but my only doubt is that I will be more isolated and will have to rely mostly on my wisdom. It has so far guided me well and I will also be able to travel to wherever a useful teacher may be found.

But I know it will be so incredibly hard to connect with serious laypeople. Do you have any suggestions?

I know the above is somewhat disorganized. I apologize for that. I think another underlying question I have is, "Do the quality of students reflect the teacher?"
chownah
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Re: No admirable friends?

Post by chownah »

You say, "I notice my practice flags from a lack of contact with individuals whose practice I admire." and yet you are "in the process of arranging my life to move to a secluded area".
These two things seem to have a certain degree of incompatability.
chownah
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cappuccino
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Re: No admirable friends?

Post by cappuccino »

As long as you are learning, your practice will be fine.
Online videos help.
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khlawng
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Re: No admirable friends?

Post by khlawng »

philosopher wrote: ... "Do the quality of students reflect the teacher?"
although not entirely bullet proof,
but yes, this would be a good place to start,
provided you are able to distinguish between mere followers,
and long time students directly training under the teacher.
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bazzaman
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Re: No admirable friends?

Post by bazzaman »

philosopher wrote:. They criticize the idea of keeping the 8 precepts, etc, and clearly do not grasp some of the Tan Ajahn's more subtle teachings.
It would not seem strange to me if householders were reluctant to keep the 8 precepts.... and, perhaps, to express some aversion to doing so... e.g. in conversation where "the idea of keeping the 8 precepts.." might be being extolled. But, since you didn't elaborate, the nature of their criticism remains unclear.
Denying the necessity of trying to adhere to the five precepts, however, would be a deal-breaker for me.
Atāṇo loko anabhissaro...

Yena yena hi maññanti tato taṃ hoti aññathā,
chownah
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Re: No admirable friends?

Post by chownah »

philosopher,
Is it possible that you have misconstrued people's attitudes about 8 precepts? If someone talked about keeping 8 precepts to me I might say that I thought that no one has an obligation to keep 8 and that trying to do so might be counterproductive for some people ...... I know that some people would misconstrue what I said as being disrepectful or critical of keeping 8 while I would in fact have said nothing which is critical or disrespectful and I would have had no intention of being disrepectful or critical.

My commenets are actually quite often misconstrued here on dhammawheel for instance.
chownah
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khlawng
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Re: No admirable friends?

Post by khlawng »

chownah wrote: ... no one has an obligation to keep 8 and that trying to do so might be counterproductive for some people ......
chownah
how would you determine if keeping the 8 may be counterproductive for some?
chownah
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Re: No admirable friends?

Post by chownah »

khlawng wrote:
chownah wrote: ... no one has an obligation to keep 8 and that trying to do so might be counterproductive for some people ......
chownah
how would you determine if keeping the 8 may be counterproductive for some?
I would be glad to answer this and my reply would be brief but I think it would change the focus of this thread from an individuals predicament into a focus on a discussion of keeping the 8. If philosopher expresses interest in how keeping the 8 might be counterproductive for some then I would reply.
chownah
chownah
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Re: No admirable friends?

Post by chownah »

khlawng wrote:
chownah wrote: ... no one has an obligation to keep 8 and that trying to do so might be counterproductive for some people ......
chownah
how would you determine if keeping the 8 may be counterproductive for some?
I think that more important for this thread is for you to say if you think I was being disrespectful or critical of keeping the 8....I can assure you that it definitely is not my intent to be disrespectful or critical because I think it is absolutely fine for lay people to pursue the 8 precepts.
chownah
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_anicca_
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Re: No admirable friends?

Post by _anicca_ »

In general, I've noticed that people are reluctant to keep 8 precepts because of a materialist world view. I.E. believe that entertainment and food is all there is to life. "Eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die".

8 precepts are very strong, but most serious lay practitioners only keep them on Uposatha days.

We need to stop trying to make our lives like those of monastics. It is just another form of desire.
"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self."

:buddha1:

http://vipassanameditation.asia
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khlawng
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Re: No admirable friends?

Post by khlawng »

chownah wrote:
khlawng wrote:
chownah wrote: ... no one has an obligation to keep 8 and that trying to do so might be counterproductive for some people ......
chownah
how would you determine if keeping the 8 may be counterproductive for some?
I think that more important for this thread is for you to say if you think I was being disrespectful or critical of keeping the 8....I can assure you that it definitely is not my intent to be disrespectful or critical because I think it is absolutely fine for lay people to pursue the 8 precepts.
chownah
i asked it out of curiosity with no judgment on your intent.
i am neutral to anyone who intends to keep the 5 or 8 or 10.
when one reaches a certain level of cultivation,
they just natural live that sort of life effortlessly.
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khlawng
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Re: No admirable friends?

Post by khlawng »

_anicca_ wrote: We need to stop trying to make our lives like those of monastics. It is just another form of desire.
there is a difference between chanda and lobha.
chownah
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Re: No admirable friends?

Post by chownah »

khlawng wrote:
chownah wrote:
khlawng wrote: how would you determine if keeping the 8 may be counterproductive for some?
I think that more important for this thread is for you to say if you think I was being disrespectful or critical of keeping the 8....I can assure you that it definitely is not my intent to be disrespectful or critical because I think it is absolutely fine for lay people to pursue the 8 precepts.
chownah
i asked it out of curiosity with no judgment on your intent.
i am neutral to anyone who intends to keep the 5 or 8 or 10.
when one reaches a certain level of cultivation,
they just natural live that sort of life effortlessly.
Great.....but you did not say if you thought I was being disrespectful or critical of keeping the 8 which is a question I posed because I think it is more directly related to the topic of the thread than is your view about the 8.

Just in case my line of reasoning has been lost in the discussion I will refresh. I am considering if perhaps philosopher is misconstruing some comment about keeping the 8 and interpreting them as being disrespectful or critical when perhap they are not.
chownah
p.s.Here are the last three paragraphs of the OP which, I think express what philosopher is asking about:
A few other thoughts: I am deeply independent and a confident solo practitioner, so I know that with willpower I will do fine on my own. In fact, I"m in the process of arranging my life to move to a secluded area where I will have plenty of space and time to practice. It has taken me a couple years to arrange things this way but my only doubt is that I will be more isolated and will have to rely mostly on my wisdom. It has so far guided me well and I will also be able to travel to wherever a useful teacher may be found.

But I know it will be so incredibly hard to connect with serious laypeople. Do you have any suggestions?

I know the above is somewhat disorganized. I apologize for that. I think another underlying question I have is, "Do the quality of students reflect the teacher?"
chownah
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_anicca_
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Re: No admirable friends?

Post by _anicca_ »

khlawng wrote:
_anicca_ wrote: We need to stop trying to make our lives like those of monastics. It is just another form of desire.
there is a difference between chanda and lobha.
Of course there is skillful and unskillful desire.
However, it is impractical to live the way that a bhikkhu does as a lay person.
"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self."

:buddha1:

http://vipassanameditation.asia
chownah
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Re: No admirable friends?

Post by chownah »

_anicca_ wrote:
khlawng wrote:
_anicca_ wrote: We need to stop trying to make our lives like those of monastics. It is just another form of desire.
there is a difference between chanda and lobha.
Of course there is skillful and unskillful desire.
However, it is impractical to live the way that a bhikkhu does as a lay person.
philosopher,
Do you interpret -annica-'s post as being disrespectful or critical of lay people pursuing the 8? I don't. I just think it is short sighted.....or maybe it is just presumptuous but not in itself disrespectful or critical....I guess.....don't know for sure....
chownah
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