Will the Dhamma be forgotten....?

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Will the Dhamma be forgotten....?

Postby Annapurna » Thu Dec 10, 2009 11:54 pm

...not sure if I'm asking in the right forum, but here is my question. (Please move it to where it's better posted, if necessary.)

So; will the Dhamma be forgotten one day and a new Buddha arise?

Did the Buddha himself make this prediction and where?

Should we cling to the Dhamma that we have now or not?

Isn't clinging a sign of attachment, although the dhamma is beneficial?

Wouldn't it fly in the face of the teachings of impermanence, if the Dhamma was "eternal"?

I guess that was more than one question! :roll:

Thanks in advance.

Anna
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Re: Will the Dhamma be forgotten....?

Postby Kare » Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:15 am

Annabel wrote:...not sure if I'm asking in the right forum, but here is my question. (Please move it to where it's better posted, if necessary.)

So; will the Dhamma be forgotten one day and a new Buddha arise?


This prediction was made in an age when literacy was scarce or non-existant.

But when the teachings were written down, the next Bodhisattva in line looked down from the Tusita heaven, swearing softly to himself: "Damn ... they've got writing! Well, I'll just have to wait until their palm leaves disintegrate ..."

After a while he looked down again, and said with a sigh: "Oh no! They've got printing! How are they going to forget the teachings of the previous Buddha now? Well ... back to old Tusita!"

And recently he looked down and was shocked: "Oh, my Deva! The teachings are all over the Internet! I'm really stuck in this old Tusita! Well, I'd better learn to meditate on boredom, then ..."

:mrgreen:
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Re: Will the Dhamma be forgotten....?

Postby Tex » Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:17 am

Here's a sort-of-related-thread with some info on a couple of your questions...

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2733
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Re: Will the Dhamma be forgotten....?

Postby pink_trike » Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:54 am

Buddhism will one day no longer accurately reflect the Dharma - a good case could be made that this is already happening. The Dharma won't be forgotten. Buddhism is just a lens through which we expand our view of the Dharma. The Dharma is always within view and there will be other lens.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

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---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Re: Will the Dhamma be forgotten....?

Postby suanck » Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:47 am

Kare wrote:
This prediction was made in an age when literacy was scarce or non-existant.

But when the teachings were written down, the next Bodhisattva in line looked down from the Tusita heaven, swearing softly to himself: "Damn ... they've got writing! Well, I'll just have to wait until their palm leaves disintegrate ..."

After a while he looked down again, and said with a sigh: "Oh no! They've got printing! How are they going to forget the teachings of the previous Buddha now? Well ... back to old Tusita!"

And recently he looked down and was shocked: "Oh, my Deva! The teachings are all over the Internet! I'm really stuck in this old Tusita! Well, I'd better learn to meditate on boredom, then ..."



Very good, Kare. Thanks! :twothumbsup:
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Re: Will the Dhamma be forgotten....?

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:45 am

I like Kare's humorous answers, but I'll take a shot at a more classical position answer:

Annabel wrote:So; will the Dhamma be forgotten one day and a new Buddha arise?


yes.

Did the Buddha himself make this prediction and where?


yes, the Buddhavamsa, Khudakka Nikaya

Should we cling to the Dhamma that we have now or not?


I don't think 'cling' is the correct word, but yes follow it and benefit from it, while you can.

Isn't clinging a sign of attachment, although the dhamma is beneficial?


yes, the Dhamma is beneficial.

Wouldn't it fly in the face of the teachings of impermanence, if the Dhamma was "eternal"?


No, the 'truth' is eternal, our (humans) knowledge of the Dhamma is not. The truth does not change, whether humans know of or follow the truth.
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Re: Will the Dhamma be forgotten....?

Postby Annapurna » Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:32 am

Thanks, all.


Tex, I couldn't take a look at the thread yet, since the page loaded very slowly. I plan o trying again later.

David, you say:

yes, the Buddhavamsa, Khudakka Nikaya


II couldn't find it and unfortunately can't spend much time researching. (Work) Do you perhaps have a link for me, or can you copy and paste the part?

Thank you so much. :thanks:

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Re: Will the Dhamma be forgotten....?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:39 am

David N. Snyder wrote:
Did the Buddha himself make this prediction and where?


yes, the Buddhavamsa, Khudakka Nikaya
I would be reluctant to put that text into the mouth of the Buddha.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Will the Dhamma be forgotten....?

Postby cooran » Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:08 am

Hello Annabel,

Yes, the Buddha taught that one day the Dhamma would be distorted and disappear.

Here are two of the suttas which are about the Disappearance of the True Dhamma.

SN 16.13 Saddhammapatirupaka Sutta: A Counterfeit of the True Dhamma
There is no disappearance of the true Dhamma as long as a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has not arisen in the world, but there is the disappearance of the true Dhamma when a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has arisen in the world. Just as there is no disappearance of gold as long as a counterfeit of gold has not arisen in the world, but there is the disappearance of gold when a counterfeit of gold has arisen in the world, in the same way there is no disappearance of the true Dhamma as long as a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has not arisen in the world, but there is the disappearance of the true Dhamma when a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has arisen in the world.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Samyutta Nikaya XX.7 Ani Sutta The Peg
Staying at Savatthi. "Monks, there once was a time when the Dasarahas had a large drum called 'Summoner.' Whenever Summoner was split, the Dasarahas inserted another peg in it, until the time came when Summoner's original wooden body had disappeared and only a conglomeration of pegs remained. [1]
"In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata -- deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness -- are being recited. They won't lend ear, won't set their hearts on knowing them, won't regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works -- the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples -- are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.
"In this way the disappearance of the discourses that are words of the Tathagata -- deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness -- will come about.
"Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata -- deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness -- are being recited. We will lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.' That's how you should train yourselves."
http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/s ... sn20-7.htm

metta
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Re: Will the Dhamma be forgotten....?

Postby cooran » Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:36 am

A few more:

Anagata-bhayani Sutta - The Discourse on Future Dangers (3)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Anagata-bhayani Sutta - The Discourse on Future Dangers (4)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Kimila Sutta - To Kimila
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

metta
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---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: Will the Dhamma be forgotten....?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:57 am

"There is no disappearing of the true Dhamma until a counterfeit
Dhamma arises in the world. Once a counterfeit Dhamma arises
then there is a disappearing of the true Dhamma. It is when,
here in the order itself, hollow and foolish persons arise that
they make this true Dhamma disappear. But five things conduce to its
maintenance, clarity and non-disappearance --that monks and nuns,
laymen and laywomen live with reverence and deference for the
Teacher, for Dhamma, for the Order, for the training and for
concentration."
[SN II 224]
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Will the Dhamma be forgotten....?

Postby PeterB » Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:57 am

So the lesson is, whether we are talking about the Dhamma of the Buddha or our mortal selves time is of the essence and should not be wasted. We are fortunate to be living still under the dispensation of a Buddha. The cause is pressing. As Chris says in her sig "The trouble is you think you have time ", That applies both us as individuals and also to we who are the current students of the Dhamma collectively.
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Re: Will the Dhamma be forgotten....?

Postby Annapurna » Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:55 am

tiltbillings wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:
Did the Buddha himself make this prediction and where?


yes, the Buddhavamsa, Khudakka Nikaya
I would be reluctant to put that text into the mouth of the Buddha.



Since you know the text, could you provide it, please? David is not here yet.

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Re: Will the Dhamma be forgotten....?

Postby Annapurna » Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:59 am

Chris wrote:Hello Annabel,

Yes, the Buddha taught that one day the Dhamma would be distorted and disappear.

Here are two of the suttas which are about the Disappearance of the True Dhamma.

SN 16.13 Saddhammapatirupaka Sutta: A Counterfeit of the True Dhamma
There is no disappearance of the true Dhamma as long as a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has not arisen in the world, but there is the disappearance of the true Dhamma when a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has arisen in the world. Just as there is no disappearance of gold as long as a counterfeit of gold has not arisen in the world, but there is the disappearance of gold when a counterfeit of gold has arisen in the world, in the same way there is no disappearance of the true Dhamma as long as a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has not arisen in the world, but there is the disappearance of the true Dhamma when a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has arisen in the world.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Samyutta Nikaya XX.7 Ani Sutta The Peg
Staying at Savatthi. "Monks, there once was a time when the Dasarahas had a large drum called 'Summoner.' Whenever Summoner was split, the Dasarahas inserted another peg in it, until the time came when Summoner's original wooden body had disappeared and only a conglomeration of pegs remained. [1]
"In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata -- deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness -- are being recited. They won't lend ear, won't set their hearts on knowing them, won't regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works -- the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples -- are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.
"In this way the disappearance of the discourses that are words of the Tathagata -- deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness -- will come about.
"Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata -- deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness -- are being recited. We will lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.' That's how you should train yourselves."
http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/s ... sn20-7.htm

metta
Chris



I was hoping you would reply, Chris, as this is what I'm looking for.

Thank you so much! I read them and will now read the others.

You get a heart from me today. :heart:
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Re: Will the Dhamma be forgotten....?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:24 am

Annabel wrote:

Since you know the text, could you provide it, please? David is not here yet.

Ty.

It is not online. In translation it is 99 pages. There is a translation of it from the Pali Text Society, but it is a bit expensive (circa $35.00), which includes another important texts on the perfections. http://www.pariyatti.org/Bookstore/prod ... sku=13072X
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Will the Dhamma be forgotten....?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:27 am

A few excerpts from the Buddhavamsa, translated by U Ko Lay and U Tin Lwin: http://www.triplegem.plus.com/gcob.htm
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Will the Dhamma be forgotten....?

Postby Annapurna » Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:40 am

It is not online.


Oh! I see. Ty!

tiltbillings wrote:"There is no disappearing of the true Dhamma until a counterfeit
Dhamma arises in the world. Once a counterfeit Dhamma arises
then there is a disappearing of the true Dhamma. It is when,
here in the order itself, hollow and foolish persons arise that
they make this true Dhamma disappear. But five things conduce to its
maintenance, clarity and non-disappearance --that monks and nuns,
laymen and laywomen live with reverence and deference for the
Teacher, for Dhamma, for the Order, for the training and for
concentration."
[SN II 224]


I wonder if that is likely to happen, though...? We already hear those questioning voices that say:

Well, who knows what crept in in those hundreds of years when the Dhamma wasn't written down yet.

If I'm not totally misunderstanding, there are also Buddhistic schools or sects which already question or dismiss rebirth, perhaps they can't wrap their minds around it and so reject it...who knows.

Not that I think I have it all down the right pipe, of course!
Last edited by Annapurna on Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Will the Dhamma be forgotten....?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:41 am

The following is NOT a sutta. It was composed in the 14th CE, but it pulls together much of the mythic stuff around the end af the Dhamma:

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:yPM ... clnk&gl=us

It was translated by I.B. Horner (not Conze).
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Will the Dhamma be forgotten....?

Postby Annapurna » Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:42 am

Wow, thank you! Now I've got quit a bit to read! :smile:
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Re: Will the Dhamma be forgotten....?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:43 am

Annabel wrote:
Well, who knows what crept in in those hundreds of years when the Dhamma wasn't written down yet. !

The Dhamma was well remembered before writing. I think we can be confident that we have the core of the Buddha's teachings.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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