Good printed translation?

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Reductor
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Good printed translation?

Postby Reductor » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:59 am

I've been looking at "the group of discourses" by K.R Norman as put out by the PTS. This is the 2001 edition.
Has anyone got an opinion on its quality -- fidelity to the texts meaning is of primacy. Oops. Stating the obvious again.

Also wondering if there is a good translation of the Udana out there. I was thinking of the Udana and Itivuttaka one by J. Ireland, but that is really expensive and I'm ok with the Itivuttaka as put out by Than. So, mostly I'm interested in the Udana.

And lastly: when the heck is Bodhi gonna finish the Anguttara Nikaya? Is there any rumor?

As you might fathom, I am intent on having a paper collection of the sutta pitaka. I have a strong preference for the old medium. :tongue:

Goodness, maybe I should just learn Pali :thinking: Actually, I think I ought to. But I'm spreading myself thin already.

Thanks.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72


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Re: Good printed translation?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:13 am

thereductor wrote:I've been looking at "the group of discourses" by K.R Norman as put out by the PTS. This is the 2001 edition.
Has anyone got an opinion on its quality -- fidelity to the texts meaning is of primacy. Oops. Stating the obvious again.
Norman is one of the foremost Pali scholars. That translation also has alternate reading of some verses by I.B. Horner and Ven W. Rahula. It is veery much worth having.

Also wondering if there is a good translation of the Udana out there. I was thinking of the Udana and Itivuttaka one by J. Ireland, but that is really expensive and I'm ok with the Itivuttaka as put out by Than. So, mostly I'm interested in the Udana.
http://www.pariyatti.org/Bookstore/prod ... cfm?PC=524 It less than $20.00US.


Goodness, maybe I should just learn Pali Actually, I think I ought to. But I'm spreading myself thin already.

Do any other language work? It is worth the effort.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Good printed translation?

Postby cooran » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:14 am

wondering if there is a good translation of the Udana out there. I was thinking of the Udana and Itivuttaka one by J. Ireland, but that is really expensive

At the BPS it is only $US8.00 (plus postage) ~ which seems very reasonable for a book of 258 pages.
http://www.bps.lk/the_udana.html

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
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Re: Good printed translation?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:26 am

Greetings,

Top recommendation by Chris... I also think John Ireland translates it very well, and I feel his translations are generally better than Thanissaro Bhikkhu's.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Good printed translation?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:35 am

The Discourse Collection
Selected Texts from the Suttanipāta
Translated by
John D. Ireland

http://www.bps.lk/new_wheels_library/wh082.pdf
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Good printed translation?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:38 am

Saṃyutta Nikāya
An Anthology
Part I
by
John D. Ireland
http://www.bps.lk/new_wheels_library/wh107.pdf

Sayutta Nikāya
An Anthology: Part II
by
Bhikkhu Ñānananda
http://www.bps.lk/new_wheels_library/wh183.pdf
This worth, not just for the translation, but also for the excellent footnotes


Alot more texts:
http://www.bps.lk/onlinelibrary_wheels.asp#whtranspali
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Good printed translation?

Postby Reductor » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:40 am

Chris and Tilt:

Thank you for the prompt replies. I looked up that one by Ireland up on amazon (canada) and it was listed for 150 bucks or there about. The local book store usually sells for more, so I didn't check with them. Don't I look a little silly. :tongue:

Much appreciation.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72


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Re: Good printed translation?

Postby bodom » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:33 pm

Numerical Discourses of the Buddha: An Anthology of Suttas from the Anguttara Nikaya by Bhikkhu Bodhi available from amazon.

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah

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Re: Good printed translation?

Postby Reductor » Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:39 pm

bodom_bad_boy wrote:Numerical Discourses of the Buddha: An Anthology of Suttas from the Anguttara Nikaya by Bhikkhu Bodhi available from amazon.

:anjali:



I've thought about that one because I've read that it is a very good collection, but have decided to wait for the big one from Bodhi... although I have wondered just how long I'm going to have to wait.

I've got the other big two from him and would like consistency.

Thanks though for the suggestion.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72


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Re: Good printed translation?

Postby seanpdx » Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:49 pm

thereductor wrote:I've been looking at "the group of discourses" by K.R Norman as put out by the PTS. This is the 2001 edition.
Has anyone got an opinion on its quality -- fidelity to the texts meaning is of primacy. Oops. Stating the obvious again.


As tilt mentioned, Norman is one of the best pali scholars around. I have this, and another print translation of the suttanipata. This is always the first translation to which I refer, and unless I'm interested in being particularly meticulous, it's the only thing to which I refer.

And lastly: when the heck is Bodhi gonna finish the Anguttara Nikaya? Is there any rumor?


I've heard nothing other than it was "forthcoming". I'm eagerly awaiting it, hoping it's not vaporware.

As you might fathom, I am intent on having a paper collection of the sutta pitaka. I have a strong preference for the old medium. :tongue:


I'm right there with you. I have a lot of printouts from stuff I only have electronically, just so I have something I can hold and peruse. =D

Goodness, maybe I should just learn Pali :thinking: Actually, I think I ought to. But I'm spreading myself thin already.


*grin* It's a very worthwhile endeavour!

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Re: Good printed translation?

Postby Kare » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:08 pm

thereductor wrote:And lastly: when the heck is Bodhi gonna finish the Anguttara Nikaya? Is there any rumor?


I've read 'two years', but that is just a rumor. As rumors go, I really prefer Paul Creston ... ;)

Two years ... ample time to read it in Pali in the meantime. :)


As you might fathom, I am intent on having a paper collection of the sutta pitaka. I have a strong preference for the old medium. :tongue:


Yes, we Theravadins should stick to the old medium. Pass me another palm leaf, please ... :D

Goodness, maybe I should just learn Pali :thinking: Actually, I think I ought to. But I'm spreading myself thin already.

Thanks.


Good luck with your Pali!
Mettāya,
Kåre

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Re: Good printed translation?

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:22 pm

Kare wrote:
As you might fathom, I am intent on having a paper collection of the sutta pitaka. I have a strong preference for the old medium. :tongue:
Yes, we Theravadins should stick to the old medium. Pass me another palm leaf, please ... :D


I shun your new dangled palm leaf and ask for a recitation daily!
:tongue:
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Re: Good printed translation?

Postby Kare » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:29 pm

Manapa wrote:
Kare wrote:
As you might fathom, I am intent on having a paper collection of the sutta pitaka. I have a strong preference for the old medium. :tongue:
Yes, we Theravadins should stick to the old medium. Pass me another palm leaf, please ... :D


I shun your new dangled palm leaf and ask for a recitation daily!
:tongue:


BTW, as everyone knows, there are lots of repetition in the Pali texts. Whole paragraphs and pages are repeated verbatim, again and again.

After thorough research, I have found how this happened. As you know, the monks who wrote down the suttas, had no PCs (Personal Computers). But they of course had BCs (Buddhist Computers) where they typed in the texts as they had heard them. Then they hit the Print button, and the palm leaf printer (also called a Palm Device) started turning out pages. But by mistake they also hit the Repeat button, and while they were sitting in deep meditation, the palm leaf printers turned out leaf after identical leaf .. for hours. When the venerable monks came out of their jhanas and saw the mistake, they just shrugged, saying: "Too bad to let all this be wasted ..." and bunched the whole lot together. And that is how the first edition of Tipitaka was created ...
Mettāya,
Kåre

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Re: Good printed translation?

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:42 pm

In the begining before the BC was invented, the monks had to use something similar to a type writer unfortunately involved a walkman or WalkBhikkhu as their tech was made elsewhere specially, and a piece of 2x4 the Abbot used to smooth out errors in the play back, the monks thus decided that they needed a more accurate and less painful way to record the texts, and that was the invention of the Buddhist computer.

ok not as good as kares but I had a go
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Re: Good printed translation?

Postby seanpdx » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:04 pm

Kare wrote:BTW, as everyone knows, there are lots of repetition in the Pali texts. Whole paragraphs and pages are repeated verbatim, again and again.

After thorough research, I have found how this happened. As you know, the monks who wrote down the suttas, had no PCs (Personal Computers). But they of course had BCs (Buddhist Computers) where they typed in the texts as they had heard them. Then they hit the Print button, and the palm leaf printer (also called a Palm Device) started turning out pages. But by mistake they also hit the Repeat button, and while they were sitting in deep meditation, the palm leaf printers turned out leaf after identical leaf .. for hours. When the venerable monks came out of their jhanas and saw the mistake, they just shrugged, saying: "Too bad to let all this be wasted ..." and bunched the whole lot together. And that is how the first edition of Tipitaka was created ...


Bravissimo! :clap:

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Re: Good printed translation?

Postby IanAnd » Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:06 pm

thereductor wrote:
bodom_bad_boy wrote:Numerical Discourses of the Buddha: An Anthology of Suttas from the Anguttara Nikaya by Bhikkhu Bodhi available from amazon.

I've thought about that one because I've read that it is a very good collection, but have decided to wait for the big one from Bodhi... although I have wondered just how long I'm going to have to wait.

Speaking from experience, the Numerical Discourses of the Buddha: An Anthology... by Nyanaponika Thera (edited by Bhikkhu Bodhi) is indeed an excellent translation and rendering of many important discourses in the Anguttara Nikaya and is well worth getting rather than waiting indefinitely for Bk. Bodhi to finish his daunting translation of the Anguttara Nikaya.

The reason I say this is because the footnotes alone are worth the price of the book. And what do the footnotes do that is so important? They help explain what is meant by the text. In other words, they clarify for the reader the intent of the sutta being footnoted. Well worth having, as it may help to clear up some misunderstandings before they become even more ingrained in the (unsuspecting) mind of the practitioner.

My two favorite volumes of the Nikayas are the two oldest volumes: the Samyutta and the Anguttara, as they explain much more than some people give them credit for. And much of that clarification has to do with the practice of meditation, if you are a discerning and intuitive reader. This is not to take away from the many golden nuggets to be found in the Majjhima and the Digha Nikayas. All four volumes are necessary for a more complete picture of the Dhamma. The older volumes not only help to give some historical context to the teachings, but they cover questions that the other two volumes do not. And for that reason alone, they are very valuable to read and comprehend.
"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV

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Re: Good printed translation?

Postby Reductor » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:02 pm

I too hope that Bodhi's AN is not vaporware. Really hopin'

Maybe, though, I will reconsider that anthology.

IanAnd wrote:My two favorite volumes of the Nikayas are the two oldest volumes: the Samyutta and the Anguttara, as they explain much more than some people give them credit for. And much of that clarification has to do with the practice of meditation, if you are a discerning and intuitive reader. This is not to take away from the many golden nuggets to be found in the Majjhima and the Digha Nikayas. All four volumes are necessary for a more complete picture of the Dhamma. The older volumes not only help to give some historical context to the teachings, but they cover questions that the other two volumes do not. And for that reason alone, they are very valuable to read and comprehend.


I've started reading the Samyutta more as of late and hopefully I am a discerning reader. :smile: Especially since I wish to be a strong mediator more than scholar, and hope to glean as much hint as I can.

seanpdx wrote:*grin* It's a very worthwhile endeavour!


And one that I will have to take up in the near future. How many people on this forum study pali, I wonder.

Thanks for all the responses.
Last edited by Reductor on Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72


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Re: Good printed translation?

Postby cooran » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:03 pm

Hello all,

A friend at Dhammagiri (who takes our Pali class on Sundays) is assisting BB with the editing of the Anguttara translations. This monumental work is on the home stretch, but maybe another year in the finishing.
I'll double check with John on the weekend to get the latest timeframe.

with metta
Chris
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---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: Good printed translation?

Postby Kare » Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:13 am

Manapa wrote:In the begining before the BC was invented, the monks had to use something similar to a type writer unfortunately involved a walkman or WalkBhikkhu as their tech was made elsewhere specially, and a piece of 2x4 the Abbot used to smooth out errors in the play back, the monks thus decided that they needed a more accurate and less painful way to record the texts, and that was the invention of the Buddhist computer.



Delving a little deeper into the history of the BC: Some bhikkhus in fact also tried out the PC, the Personal Computer, the Puggala Computer or the Attakomputiko, as it was called in Pali. And although they made some breakthrough inventions - they invented the harddisk (or storehouse disk, the alayavijnana, as they called it) and were quite successful for some time, they were strongly criticized and condemned by other bhikkhus, who preferred to develop the Apuggala Computer or Anattakomputiko. Therefore the PC (Puggala Computer) died out in India, and had to be reinvented in the West in recent times.

Sorry ... enough nonsense for today ... :toilet:
Mettāya,
Kåre

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Re: Good printed translation?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:38 am

Greetings Chris,

Chris wrote:A friend at Dhammagiri (who takes our Pali class on Sundays) is assisting BB with the editing of the Anguttara translations. This monumental work is on the home stretch, but maybe another year in the finishing.
I'll double check with John on the weekend to get the latest timeframe.


Thanks for the news - excellent to hear that it's at the editing stage.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)


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