Māra

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Māra

Postby Sekha » Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:51 am

is he a being endowed with 5 khandhas or is it just a poetical term?
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

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Re: Māra

Postby acinteyyo » Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:10 am

Hi,

it's a pesonalisation but not in fact a being.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

:anjali:
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Re: Māra

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Sun Jan 24, 2010 11:24 am

The Five Māras

So, it depends on the context. Māra may refer to a being with five aggregates, the five aggregates themselves can be called Māra, the defilements are Māra, and gaining freedom from death (Arahantship) is to escape from the clutches of Māra, which is a synonym for death.

Māra devaputta appeared several times to the Buddha, and to his disciples. See for example, the Vajirā Sutta or the Māratajjaniya Sutta
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Re: Māra

Postby Laurens » Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:32 pm

I always thought that Māra was an aspect of ourselves, not a seperate entity.

The idea that he is an actual being is a tad too ridiculous for me.
"For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."

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Re: Māra

Postby Reductor » Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:36 pm

Laurens wrote:I always thought that Māra was an aspect of ourselves, not a seperate entity.

The idea that he is an actual being is a tad too ridiculous for me.


Why?
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72

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Re: Māra

Postby Sekha » Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:37 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:The Five Māras

So, it depends on the context. Māra may refer to a being with five aggregates, the five aggregates themselves can be called Māra, the defilements are Māra, and gaining freedom from death (Arahantship) is to escape from the clutches of Māra, which is a synonym for death.

Māra devaputta appeared several times to the Buddha, and to his disciples. See for example, the Vajirā Sutta or the Māratajjaniya Sutta


thanx for this short and accurate reply





Laurens wrote:I always thought that Māra was an aspect of ourselves, not a seperate entity.

The idea that he is an actual being is a tad too ridiculous for me.


As long as we have no perception of deva worlds we can't say anything about what happens there. If the Buddha or Ananda says so, there is certainly a reason
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Re: Māra

Postby bodom » Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:40 pm

thereductor wrote:
Laurens wrote:I always thought that Māra was an aspect of ourselves, not a seperate entity.

The idea that he is an actual being is a tad too ridiculous for me.


Why?


Buddhist version of the devil.

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: Māra

Postby Sekha » Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:41 pm

There is a translation of Māratajjaniya Sutta here :
http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/M ... /mn-50.htm
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Re: Māra

Postby David N. Snyder » Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:47 pm

See also: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3318&p=48457#p48457

Mara sometimes gets translated as 'Satan' or devil and in the Suttas we see him called "evil one" but strangely, Mara (the being, if you espouse a personal being of Mara) is not in hell at all. He resides in one of the lower deva realms. Perhaps it is out of ego or jealousy that he prevents or attempts to prevent Bodhisattas from becoming enlightened?

If you take a Mara as mind and mental states stance, then that would not be an issue.
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Re: Māra

Postby Reductor » Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:49 pm

bodom wrote:
thereductor wrote:
Laurens wrote:I always thought that Māra was an aspect of ourselves, not a seperate entity.

The idea that he is an actual being is a tad too ridiculous for me.


Why?


Buddhist version of the devil.

:anjali:


Oh, I know. But to be similar in aspect to the Theistic devil doesn't negate the possibility of his existence. Not to say you must believe Mara is a real being. The concept works alright even without said belief... but I can't see a good reason to dismiss the possibility as ridiculous.

When ever Mara's in the same scene as Buddha, I figured him to be a real being. Otherwise I allow that it might be a fancy name for craving, aversion and delusion, pain, pleasure, etc.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72

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Re: Māra

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:40 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:He resides in one of the lower deva realms

No, he resides in the highest deva realm of the sensual planes — paranimmita-vasavatti devaloka

The way I see it, Māra is like a materialistic multi-billionaire who is able to enjoy whatever sensual pleasures he wishes to enjoy. He is not a scrooge figure who doesn't enjoy his wealth, but he thinks that sensual enjoyment is the highest bliss, and is totally oblivious to the truth of suffering. He has everything to lose from the teachings of the Buddha, which say that sensual pleasures are empty and void, impermanent and unstable, and not worthy of our interest. Therefore, Māra is vehemently opposed to the Dhamma.

Other devas, like Sakka in Tāvatiṃsa, or the Bodhisatta's mother in Tusita, are also able to enjoy sensual pleasures whenever they wish, but being Noble Ones, they have great confidence in and respect for the Dhamma, since they understand the suffering inherent in existence and the pursuit of sensual pleasures.
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Re: Māra

Postby David N. Snyder » Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:56 pm

Hi Bhante,

I meant the lower deva realms in terms of looking at all of the deva realms, including the rupa-loka and arupa loka, which would place him at #11 on the list to #31. But I realize that 28-31 is not necessarily 'higher' to the Pure Abodes, so thanks for the information.

Mara sounds eerily familiar to some 'celebrities' we see in the modern world. :spy:
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