strange logic in a sutta

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strange logic in a sutta

Postby Sekha » Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:13 pm

[not sure about where I should post this topic]

here are the stanzas. Can anyone help understanding the meaning of the conclusion?

Searching all directions
with one's awareness,
one finds no one dearer
than oneself.
In the same way, others
are fiercely dear to themselves.
So one should not hurt others
if one loves oneself.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

As a sweet-smelling and beautiful lotus flower may grow upon a heap of rubbish thrown on the highway, so also, out of the rubbish heap of beings may appear a disciple of the Buddha, who with his wisdom, shines resplendent in wisdom. -/ Dhp 58-59
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Re: strange logic in a sutta

Postby jcsuperstar » Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:28 pm

do unto others as one would have done to themselves
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: strange logic in a sutta

Postby meindzai » Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:56 pm

Ok, I've heard it explained a few times so I'll try and re-expklain best I can. It is known that we are dear to ourselvse, therefore we know that we wish no harm upon ourselves. We should realize that other beings feel the same way about themselves.

It's kind of like "do unto others." Or "we're all in the same samsaric boat." Or in negative terms, if you would do something harmful to another person, they might say "well how would YOU like it if I did that to you?" You wouldn't like it - so don't do it to other people.

-M
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Re: strange logic in a sutta

Postby Abyss » Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:36 pm

Dukkhanirodha wrote:[not sure about where I should post this topic]

here are the stanzas. Can anyone help understanding the meaning of the conclusion?

Searching all directions
with one's awareness,
one finds no one dearer
than oneself.
In the same way, others
are fiercely dear to themselves.
So one should not hurt others
if one loves oneself.

I think those verses require the ability and the will to empathize with others. If that is not given, there is no "logic" to be found in them. In such cases another motive for not hurting others is required instead, maybe the prospect of punishment or a bad rebirth.
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Re: strange logic in a sutta

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:23 pm

Greetings,

I think the above poster's have nailed the gist of the sutta.

"So one should not hurt others if one loves oneself", looked at from another perspective, also reflects the way in which actions which are intended to harm others, are rooted in greed, aversion or delusion, and are thus harmful to one's self. See for example...

AN 7.60: Kodhana Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: strange logic in a sutta

Postby Mawkish1983 » Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:39 am

Awesome. So simple, but SO profound.
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Re: strange logic in a sutta

Postby MatSalted » Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:50 am

Hiya

The Golden Rule, do unto others as you would be done by, is the moral cornerstone of most religions. Christain, Buddhist, Jewish and many more: http://www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc.htm. The Buddha states it too in a number of places and ways but I think he also adds to it with an exliantion of why compassion is good and greed or deceit bad.

I think that the real mystery about The Golden Rule isn't its logic but this:

If every religion claims to adhere to The Golden Rule then why is it not adhered to between the world's religions?

Promises Promises, questions questions.

:)

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Re: strange logic in a sutta

Postby Sekha » Fri Jan 29, 2010 5:41 pm

well my point is rather that there is a missing link in the conclusion, the reality underlying the word "so" between 'loving oneself' and 'not hurting others'. This feels strange to me because the Buddha never misses any link in a detailed explanation. This explanation starts like a detailed one, and suddenly jumps to the conclusion at the end. I was wondering if there is a way to understand this statement without making any assumption, or if there would be a mistranslation, or if simply at this time the Buddha did not explain fully his (seemingly detailed) statement.
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

As a sweet-smelling and beautiful lotus flower may grow upon a heap of rubbish thrown on the highway, so also, out of the rubbish heap of beings may appear a disciple of the Buddha, who with his wisdom, shines resplendent in wisdom. -/ Dhp 58-59
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Re: strange logic in a sutta

Postby piotr » Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:48 am

Hi,

Here is a comment by bhante Thanissaro:

    Searching all directions
    with one’s awareness,
    one finds no one dearer
    than oneself.
    In the same way, others
    are fiercely dear to themselves.
    So one should not hurt others
    if one loves oneself.

    In other words, true self‐love requires an appreciation that others feel self‐love, too. This principle works in two ways: First, you recognize that if your happiness depends on the misery of others it won’t last, for they’ll do whatever they can to destroy that happiness. Your long‐term happiness thus has to take into account the long‐term happiness of others. Second, in a less calculating way, you recognize what we all have in common. If you take your own self‐love seriously, you have to respect the self‐love of others. In this way, compassion is based not on a sense of your superiority to those who are suffering but on a sense of mutual respect—a respect solidly based in your own self‐interest.

    —Thanissaro Bhikkhu, The problem of egolessness
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...
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Re: strange logic in a sutta

Postby Sthiracitta » Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:24 pm

I don't think this is an appeal to logic but to sympathy. reflecting on the first two statements will (in most cases) bring about the arising of fellow feeling and that "logicically" leads to the conclusion, If you want a logical and more selfish augment for not harming others it would be something like this.

you wish for happiness
harming others leads to unhappiness
therefore do not harm others.

This is similar to the first verses of the dhammapada
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Re: strange logic in a sutta

Postby PeterB » Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:48 pm

I think yet another dimension is that if we are at peace with ourselves we are unmotivated to harm another. Harming someone else is often due to our own hurt.
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Re: strange logic in a sutta

Postby Sekha » Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:12 pm

piotr wrote:Hi,

Here is a comment by bhante Thanissaro:

    Searching all directions
    with one’s awareness,
    one finds no one dearer
    than oneself.
    In the same way, others
    are fiercely dear to themselves.
    So one should not hurt others
    if one loves oneself.

    In other words, true self‐love requires an appreciation that others feel self‐love, too. This principle works in two ways: First, you recognize that if your happiness depends on the misery of others it won’t last, for they’ll do whatever they can to destroy that happiness. Your long‐term happiness thus has to take into account the long‐term happiness of others. Second, in a less calculating way, you recognize what we all have in common. If you take your own self‐love seriously, you have to respect the self‐love of others. In this way, compassion is based not on a sense of your superiority to those who are suffering but on a sense of mutual respect—a respect solidly based in your own self‐interest.

    —Thanissaro Bhikkhu, The problem of egolessness



good one : )

I think I now understood: the Buddha did not give the complete explanation probably because he wanted his listeners to reflect on that point. Little bit like a koan.
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

As a sweet-smelling and beautiful lotus flower may grow upon a heap of rubbish thrown on the highway, so also, out of the rubbish heap of beings may appear a disciple of the Buddha, who with his wisdom, shines resplendent in wisdom. -/ Dhp 58-59
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Re: strange logic in a sutta

Postby Jack » Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:38 pm

"Bhikkhus, once there was an acrobat who set up his bamboo pole and called to his student, saying, "Come here and climb the pole and stand on my shoulders," and the pupil did as he was told.

Then the bamboo acrobat said to his pupil, "Now, you take good care of me and I'll take good care of you. By watching over and protecting each other like this, we will show off our skills, get a good fee, and safely descend from the bamboo pole."

At these words, the pupil said to his teacher, "Teacher, I don't think I can do that. You look after yourself and I will look after myself. If we both watch and protect ourselves then we will be able to show our art, get a good fee, and safely descend the bamboo pole."

The Blessed One said, "That was the correct thing to do in that case: Just as that pupil spoke to his master, when thinking, 'I will protect myself,' you must be mindful, and when thinking, 'I will protect others,' you must also be mindful.

"Bhikkhus, protecting yourself, you protect others; protecting others, you protect yourself.

And how is it that while protecting yourself you protect others? By earnest practice, development, training, and making the most of it. In this way, when you protect yourself, you protect others. And how do you protect others by protecting yourself? By proper resolve {chanda), by non-violence, by
possessing a heart of loving-kindness and compassion. In this way, protecting others, you protect yourself.

Bhikkhus, when thinking, 'I will protect myself,' you must be mindful. When thinking, 'I will protect others,' you must also be mindful. In this way, protecting yourself can be called protecting others, and protecting others can be called protecting yourself."

SV 268-169
Samyuttanikaya

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