When does real mindfulness start?

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When does real mindfulness start?

Postby heraclito27 » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:26 pm

What is the cause that "trying to be mindful" stop and "real mindfulness" start?
What is the difference between these two mental activities?
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Re: When does real mindfulness start?

Postby bodom » Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:13 pm

There is a passage in Analayo's Satipatthana commentary that states that arahants never lose mindfulness. I cant remember what page its on or what sutta is referred to. So i believe until then no one will be able to maintain perfect mindfulness until arahantship is attained.

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: When does real mindfulness start?

Postby Goofaholix » Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:10 pm

heraclito27 wrote:What is the cause that "trying to be mindful" stop and "real mindfulness" start?
What is the difference between these two mental activities?


In my experience it's a gradual shift that takes place over a number of years, but as bodom says it probably doesn't become 100% until you're enlightened. Think of a skateboard or scooter, at first you push and push until you gain enough momentum and then it's free and easy to travel along, but then from time to time you need to push some more to maintain your momentum.
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
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Re: When does real mindfulness start?

Postby bodom » Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:20 pm

Goofaholix wrote:
heraclito27 wrote:What is the cause that "trying to be mindful" stop and "real mindfulness" start?
What is the difference between these two mental activities?


In my experience it's a gradual shift that takes place over a number of years, but as bodom says it probably doesn't become 100% until you're enlightened. Think of a skateboard or scooter, at first you push and push until you gain enough momentum and then it's free and easy to travel along, but then from time to time you need to push some more to maintain your momentum.


Nice analogy. I like that.

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: When does real mindfulness start?

Postby heraclito27 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:45 pm

Ok, thank you.
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Re: When does real mindfulness start?

Postby jcsuperstar » Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:49 pm

heraclito27 wrote:What is the cause that "trying to be mindful" stop and "real mindfulness" start?
What is the difference between these two mental activities?

define "real" mindfulness.
once one learns how to be mindful it should start. a lot of the problem is learning not directly from a teacher but from books or the Internet. some times 50 different teachers will say the same thing 50 different ways and maybe one of them will say it in a way where you "get it" this is why interaction with a teacher is so important.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: When does real mindfulness start?

Postby meindzai » Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:58 pm

jcsuperstar wrote:define "real" mindfulness.


Unbroken (constant) mindfulness of the four foundations/frames of reference, IMO.

-M
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Re: When does real mindfulness start?

Postby bodom » Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:36 pm

meindzai wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote:define "real" mindfulness.


Unbroken (constant) mindfulness of the four foundations/frames of reference, IMO.

-M


I agree. There is only one type of mindfulness to be developed but there are different types of objects to be mindful of.

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: When does real mindfulness start?

Postby Goofaholix » Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:55 pm

bodom wrote:
meindzai wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote:I agree. There is only one type of mindfulness to be developed but there are different types of objects to be mindful of.

:anjali:


The objects, in the way mindfulness is taught, are just a tool. Mindfulness is a quality of mind, a quality of remembering to be aware, whatever objects may arise and pass away it doesn't matter the aim is for that quality of mind to be consistent.
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
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Re: When does real mindfulness start?

Postby jcsuperstar » Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:05 pm

meindzai wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote:define "real" mindfulness.


Unbroken (constant) mindfulness of the four foundations/frames of reference, IMO.

-M

um i guess when one is an arahant then?
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: When does real mindfulness start?

Postby meindzai » Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:16 pm

jcsuperstar wrote:
meindzai wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote:define "real" mindfulness.


Unbroken (constant) mindfulness of the four foundations/frames of reference, IMO.

-M

um i guess when one is an arahant then?


Probably. Is it possible to have constant and unbroken mindfulness of the four foundations and still not have any wisdom?

-M
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Re: When does real mindfulness start?

Postby jcsuperstar » Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:24 pm

well according to abhidhamma one cant have akusala citta while maintaining mindfulness right? so to have constant mindfulness would mean to have nothing but kusala cittas which would mean the ending of greed, hatred and delusion , therefore that would imply wisdom right?
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: When does real mindfulness start?

Postby meindzai » Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:28 pm

jcsuperstar wrote:well according to abhidhamma one cant have akusala citta while maintaining mindfulness right? so to have constant mindfulness would mean to have nothing but kusala cittas which would mean the ending of greed, hatred and delusion , therefore that would imply wisdom right?


I can't find any reason to disagree with that.

-M
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