It's very much a sutta-by-sutta affair... but the following is a very rough guide... SN, AN/MN, DN, KN.clw_uk wrote:Which is the oldest part of the sutta pitaka?
Metta,
Retro.
It's very much a sutta-by-sutta affair... but the following is a very rough guide... SN, AN/MN, DN, KN.clw_uk wrote:Which is the oldest part of the sutta pitaka?
Theravada tradition holds that it was all recited at the First Council, excepting only those suttas taught by arahant disciples some time after the Buddha's passing. So, for those who accept this view obviously the oldest part of the Sutta Piṭaka will be that which the Buddha taught first: his speech to Upaka on the way to Sarnath and then the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.clw_uk wrote:Which is the oldest part of the sutta pitaka?
I thought the Dhammacakkavattana was the first?Dhammanando wrote:obviously the oldest part of the Sutta Piṭaka will be that which the Buddha taught first: his speech to Upaka on the way to Sarnath and then the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.
It's true that the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta is classed as the Buddha's first teaching of Dhamma (dhammadesanā). However, before this, while he was on his way to the Deer Park, the Buddha met the ājīvaka Upaka and the following dialogue ensured:Manapa wrote:I thought the Dhammacakkavattana was the first?
Dhammanando wrote:Hi Manapa,
It's true that the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta is classed as the Buddha's first teaching of Dhamma (dhammadesanā). However, before this, while he was on his way to the Deer Park, the Buddha met the ājīvaka Upaka and the following dialogue ensured:Manapa wrote:I thought the Dhammacakkavattana was the first?
However, the above exchange is not viewed as a dhammadesanā, but rather as a vāsanābhāgiya sutta, i.e. a discourse aimed at establishing someone on a wholesome course. In Upaka's case this bore fruit later, when, after contracting a miserable marriage, he went forth and ended his life as an anāgāmin.
- Upaka:
"Your faculties are serene, friend; the complexion of your skin is clear and bright. Under whom have you gone forth? Or who is your teacher? Or whose Dhamma do you confess?"
The Buddha:
"I am an All-transcender, an All-knower,
Unsullied by all things, renouncing all,
By craving's ceasing freed. And this I owe
To my own wisdom. To whom should I concede it?
"I have no teacher, and my like
Exists nowhere in all the world
With all its gods, because I have
No person for my counterpart.
"I am the Teacher in the world
Without a peer, accomplished, too,
And I alone am fully awakened,
Quenched, whose fires all extinct.
"I go to Kāsi's city now
To set the Wheel of Dhamma
In motion: in a blindfold world
I go to beat the Deathless Drum."
Upaka:
"By your claims, friend, you are a Universal Victor."
The Buddha:
"The victors like me, Upaka,
Are those whose taints are quite exhausted;
I have vanquished all states of evil:
It is for that I am a Victor."
When this was said, the ājīvaka Upaka remarked: "May it be so, friend"; shaking his head, he took a side track and departed.
(Vin.i.8; MN.i.170-1. trans. from Ñāṇamoli's Life of the Buddha)
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
The difference lies in the outcome of the teaching. A vāsanābhāgiya sutta, like that given to Upaka, doesn't result in the arising of the Dhamma eye (i.e. the attainment of stream-entry or higher) in the listener, nor is it intended to. Any sutta where the Buddha limits his teaching to dāna, sīla, heavenly rebirth etc. is classed as vāsanābhāgiya.Manapa wrote:I was going to add is it something to do with the difference in style such as one being a teaching the other a conversation, or something of the like that poped in my mind at the time!