Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

Greetings,

clw_uk wrote:Which is the oldest part of the sutta pitaka?

It's very much a sutta-by-sutta affair... but the following is a very rough guide... SN, AN/MN, DN, KN.

Metta,
Retro.

Hi Craig,

clw_uk wrote:Which is the oldest part of the sutta pitaka?

Theravada tradition holds that it was all recited at the First Council, excepting only those suttas taught by arahant disciples some time after the Buddha's passing. So, for those who accept this view obviously the oldest part of the Sutta Piṭaka will be that which the Buddha taught first: his speech to Upaka on the way to Sarnath and then the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.

Modern Pali scholars, on the other hand, propose a variety of theories about the oldest stratum. Some argue for the Aṭṭhakavagga and Parāyanavagga of the Suttanipāta, others for certain suttas from the Majjhima Nikāya, others for an hypothesized proto-Saṃyutta Nikāya, etc. etc.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu

Hi Dhammanando

Dhammanando wrote:obviously the oldest part of the Sutta Piṭaka will be that which the Buddha taught first: his speech to Upaka on the way to Sarnath and then the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.

I thought the Dhammacakkavattana was the first?

Hi Manapa,

Manapa wrote:I thought the Dhammacakkavattana was the first?

It's true that the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta is classed as the Buddha's first teaching of Dhamma (dhammadesanā). However, before this, while he was on his way to the Deer Park, the Buddha met the ājīvaka Upaka and the following dialogue ensured:

• Upaka:
  
  "Your faculties are serene, friend; the complexion of your skin is clear and bright. Under whom have you gone forth? Or who is your teacher? Or whose Dhamma do you confess?"
  
  The Buddha:
  
  "I am an All-transcender, an All-knower,
  Unsullied by all things, renouncing all,
  By craving's ceasing freed. And this I owe
  To my own wisdom. To whom should I concede it?
  
  "I have no teacher, and my like
  Exists nowhere in all the world
  With all its gods, because I have
  No person for my counterpart.
  
  "I am the Teacher in the world
  Without a peer, accomplished, too,
  And I alone am fully awakened,
  Quenched, whose fires all extinct.
  
  "I go to Kāsi's city now
  To set the Wheel of Dhamma
  In motion: in a blindfold world
  I go to beat the Deathless Drum."
  
  Upaka:
  
  "By your claims, friend, you are a Universal Victor."
  
  The Buddha:
  
  "The victors like me, Upaka,
  Are those whose taints are quite exhausted;
  I have vanquished all states of evil:
  It is for that I am a Victor."
  
  When this was said, the ājīvaka Upaka remarked: "May it be so, friend"; shaking his head, he took a side track and departed.
  (Vin.i.8; MN.i.170-1. trans. from Ñāṇamoli's Life of the Buddha)

However, the above exchange is not viewed as a dhammadesanā, but rather as a vāsanābhāgiya sutta, i.e. a discourse aimed at establishing someone on a wholesome course. In Upaka's case this bore fruit later, when, after contracting a miserable marriage, he went forth and ended his life as an anāgāmin.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu

Hi Dhammanando
Thanks!
I was going to add is it something to do with the difference in style such as one being a teaching the other a conversation, or something of the like that poped in my mind at the time!
With Metta
Manapa

Dhammanando wrote:Hi Manapa,

Manapa wrote:I thought the Dhammacakkavattana was the first?

It's true that the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta is classed as the Buddha's first teaching of Dhamma (dhammadesanā). However, before this, while he was on his way to the Deer Park, the Buddha met the ājīvaka Upaka and the following dialogue ensured:

• Upaka:
  
  "Your faculties are serene, friend; the complexion of your skin is clear and bright. Under whom have you gone forth? Or who is your teacher? Or whose Dhamma do you confess?"
  
  The Buddha:
  
  "I am an All-transcender, an All-knower,
  Unsullied by all things, renouncing all,
  By craving's ceasing freed. And this I owe
  To my own wisdom. To whom should I concede it?
  
  "I have no teacher, and my like
  Exists nowhere in all the world
  With all its gods, because I have
  No person for my counterpart.
  
  "I am the Teacher in the world
  Without a peer, accomplished, too,
  And I alone am fully awakened,
  Quenched, whose fires all extinct.
  
  "I go to Kāsi's city now
  To set the Wheel of Dhamma
  In motion: in a blindfold world
  I go to beat the Deathless Drum."
  
  Upaka:
  
  "By your claims, friend, you are a Universal Victor."
  
  The Buddha:
  
  "The victors like me, Upaka,
  Are those whose taints are quite exhausted;
  I have vanquished all states of evil:
  It is for that I am a Victor."
  
  When this was said, the ājīvaka Upaka remarked: "May it be so, friend"; shaking his head, he took a side track and departed.
  (Vin.i.8; MN.i.170-1. trans. from Ñāṇamoli's Life of the Buddha)

However, the above exchange is not viewed as a dhammadesanā, but rather as a vāsanābhāgiya sutta, i.e. a discourse aimed at establishing someone on a wholesome course. In Upaka's case this bore fruit later, when, after contracting a miserable marriage, he went forth and ended his life as an anāgāmin.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu

Hi Manapa,

Manapa wrote:I was going to add is it something to do with the difference in style such as one being a teaching the other a conversation, or something of the like that poped in my mind at the time!

The difference lies in the outcome of the teaching. A vāsanābhāgiya sutta, like that given to Upaka, doesn't result in the arising of the Dhamma eye (i.e. the attainment of stream-entry or higher) in the listener, nor is it intended to. Any sutta where the Buddha limits his teaching to dāna, sīla, heavenly rebirth etc. is classed as vāsanābhāgiya.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu

Thank you for repying to my post , sorry for late reply forgot to come back and check this thread