Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

[tiltbillings]

I remember a talk given by Chanmyay Sayādaw . . .

Thanks. Good teachings.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings venerable Paññāsikhara,

We can always point out that the commentaries are much later, and all that sort of thing, but has the "General Theravada Forum" become the "Sutta & Vinaya Only Forum"? Not that I know of.

Not at all... people are free to believe whatever they like, and to present any views which happen to have been classified as "Theravada" at any point over the past 2500-2600 years, whether they be spoken by a fully enlightened Buddha or a putthujana. It's a broad spectrum, as there's a lot of views and many of them are irreconcilable. Such are the limitations of "traditions" and "schools" for all they can ever be is an aggregation of their members views at any point in time. Many Theravadins are "Sutta & Vinaya Only" in their beliefs - many aren't... therefore "according to Theravada" is a very broad-brush term, particularly when many Theravadins would disagree with what is said, and doubly so when there's no record of the Buddha stating it.

Even calling oneself Theravadin in one's belief is an approximation of sorts, because what exactly is "the" one true single Theravadin view on anything? There's no two people on this website who have identical views of the Dhamma. There is no possibility for any such thing. I compiled a post earlier from Theravadin sources that was vastly different in its meaning and argument than the one previously presented by Virgo.

The Theravadin commentaries themselves state that when there is conflict between the Tipitaka and the Commentaries, the Tipitaka takes precedence. (Alas, I don't know the source of this - ven. Dhammanando provided it back at E-Sangha). I think this is a good guiding principle for Theravada - if people go against it they're going against both the Pali Canon and the commentaries. If followed, it will also help keep the tradition well anchored to the teachings of its founder. Therefore, I myself do not use the term "according to Theravada" unless I know it accords with the Suttas, or preferably, is a direct quotation of the Dhamma-Vinaya itself.

Others may have their own standards, as they see fit, and they are welcome to them and welcome to challenge mine, so long as it remains on-topic. No one will be silenced or taken out back and disposed of for their views....

Metta,
Retro.

[mikenz66]

Hi Retro,

The Theravadin commentaries themselves state that when there is conflict between the Tipitaka and the Commentaries, the Tipitaka takes precedence.

So what exactly are the conflicts you are worried about in this case?

I can't think of a Sutta offhand that talks about a long development, but neither can I think of one that says that there isn't. And there's plenty about long times, so it seems kind of logical that there was development taking place:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. What do you think, monks: Which is greater, the tears you have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — or the water in the four great oceans?"

Metta
Mike

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Mike,

Hi Retro,

The Theravadin commentaries themselves state that when there is conflict between the Tipitaka and the Commentaries, the Tipitaka takes precedence.

So what exactly are the conflicts you are worried about in this case?

To begin then, let's compare venerable Paññāsikhara's assessment of the relationship between "requires many lifetimes", which is alleged to be the commentarial position (though no one has yet to provide an English translation of this view)

There is no strict contradiction between "requires many lifetimes" and "possible in this lifetime", though there would be if the latter were something like "possible in this lifetime if it were the first lifetime to make any sort of spiritual practice at all".

...with the Satipatthana Sutta...

"Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or — if there be any remnant of clinging/sustenance — non-return.

"Let alone seven years. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for six years... five... four... three... two years... one year... seven months... six months... five... four... three... two months... one month... half a month, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or — if there be any remnant of clinging/sustenance — non-return.

"Let alone half a month. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven days, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or — if there be any remnant of clinging/sustenance — non-return.

Verily, monks, whosoever practices these four foundations of mindfulness in this manner for seven years, then one of these two fruits may be expected by him: highest knowledge (arahantship) here and now, or if some remainder of clinging is yet present, the state of non-returning.

"O bhikkhus, should any person maintain the Four Arousings of Mindfulness in this manner for seven years, then by him one of two fruitions is proper to be expected: Knowledge (arahantship) here and now; or, if some form of clinging is yet present, the state of non-returning (the Third Stage of Supramundane Fulfillment).

Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation says "anyone" as well.

All translation are without any qualifications of lives and lives worth of paramita development. Such qualifications would hardly make it "anyone".

Metta,
Retro.

[Dan74]

Well, if it's anyone, then why not everyone? Obviously the ability to do this is conditional upon other factors, such as the development of the paramis.

I am sure a person of your intelligence, retro, would've thought of this, so what am I missing?

[BlackBird]

Sorry about interrupting the flow of this

Greetings Virgo,

Yes, they practiced under previous Buddhas.

There's the infinite regress that your position logically commits you to.

How did the first Buddha become enlightened without a previous Buddha to practice under?

Metta,
Retro.

Hi Retro,

He must have developed wisdom and practiced the 10 perfections for an incredibly long time, probably much longer than other Buddhas because he did not have any Aryan teachers.

If Samsara is without discernible beginning, then how could there be a 'first' Buddha? What am I missing here?

metta
Jack

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Dan,

Well, if it's anyone, then why not everyone?

Because not everyone follows the Buddha's instructions, perhaps?

Soma's translation of the commentary to the sutta reads...

[Sutta] "Verily, o bhikkhus, should any person make become the Four Arousings Of Mindfulness in this manner"
[Commentary] If any bhikkhu or bhikkuni or upasaka or upasika cultivates mindfulness from the beginning according to the method taught here.

He's talking about anyone who follows the instructions expounded in the sutta, but of course not everyone does that.

Does that answer your question?

Metta,
Retro.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

To quote Bhikkhu Pesala's insightful words from his website... ( http://www.aimwell.org/Forums/forums.html )

All suttas and sutras should be read with an open mind, and compared with teachings in other discourses to see if they fit in with the Dhamma and Vinaya. In the Mahāparinibbāna Sutta the Buddha gave the Four Great References, which one should use to test the authenticity of any teaching that is alleged to be the teaching of the Buddha. What these four standards boil down to is that the reputation of the source is irrelevant, all that matters is “Does it fit in with what is found elsewhere in the Dhamma and Vinaya?” If it does, one should accept it. If it does not, one should reject it.

These four references, referred to are as follows...

The Four Great References

7. And there the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Now, bhikkhus, I shall make known to you the four great references. Listen and pay heed to my words." And those bhikkhus answered, saying:

"So be it, Lord."

8-11. Then the Blessed One said: "In this fashion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might speak: 'Face to face with the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a community with elders and a chief. Face to face with that community, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name live several bhikkhus who are elders, who are learned, who have accomplished their course, who are preservers of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with those elders, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a single bhikkhu who is an elder, who is learned, who has accomplished his course, who is a preserver of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with that elder, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation.'

"In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, are the four great references for you to preserve."

Source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .html#ref4

Therefore, before you accept any teaching as genuine — and that includes the teaching in this post — make a proper investigation.

Metta,
Retro.

[Dan74]

Greetings Dan,

Well, if it's anyone, then why not everyone?

Because not everyone follows the Buddha's instructions, perhaps?

Soma's translation of the commentary to the sutta reads...

[Sutta] "Verily, o bhikkhus, should any person make become the Four Arousings Of Mindfulness in this manner"
[Commentary] If any bhikkhu or bhikkuni or upasaka or upasika cultivates mindfulness from the beginning according to the method taught here.

He's talking about anyone who follows the instructions expounded in the sutta, but of course not everyone does that.

Does that answer your question?

Metta,
Retro.

But why doesn't everyone follow the Buddha's instructions? How many practitioners follow the Buddha's instructions to the point of attaining arahatship? And what differentiates between those who do and those who don't? Do you see what I am getting at?

Sure these kammic matters are complex and one can seemingly make leaps in a lifetime. It's hard to believe that Angulimala cultivated deep paramis in previous lifetimes, but on the other hand not many murderers became arahats. Not many non-murderers either. So the ground must've been fertile.

To me this boils down to the question of bodhicitta, but in order to have sufficient resolve to carry out the Buddha's instruction, one has to appreciate the incredible importance of this. And can this be appreciated without the deep cultivation of the paramis?

[Paññāsikhara]

But why doesn't everyone follow the Buddha's instructions? How many practitioners follow the Buddha's instructions to the point of attaining arahatship? And what differentiates between those who do and those who don't? Do you see what I am getting at?

This is a very good point.

For example, right now, teachings on the establishments of mindfulness can be easily obtained in a number of places. Yet, why is it that some people have absolutely no interest at all? Or, for those who have some interest, that interest soon recedes? Or, though the interest remains, they do not clearly understand it?

Or broader: Why is it that many people have very little, or no interest in the Dhamma? Or there is interest, but they very quickly lose interest? Or, interest remains, but they completely misunderstand the teachings, and make no effort to end the round?

We may say that it is because they don't have a good teacher? But what sort of kamma, and how much, is required to find a good teacher?
Or, even more simply, some people cannot read? But what sort of kamma, and how much, is required to have a school, a teacher to teach reading, and the freedom of time and resources to learn to read?

How many people have interest, but don't have enough time. They are too busy, without work, they will have no food to eat, or place to live. What sort of kamma, and how much, is required to have food, clothing and shelter, to have time so that one can turn towards the Dhamma?

The amassing of this good kamma is shown in the passage cited above by the term "bodhisambhara", the "requisites of awakening". Without these requisites, one may never even encounter a teaching on mindfulness, or other teachings. Or, not have the freedom and time to apply it. Let alone to the point of intensive effort to attain liberation.

Those "requisites of awakening" are just the amassed results of the practices of the perfections.

On a more personal note, I have often found this question needs to be asked when I encounter people who have confidence in the teachings leading to swift awakening, but when I ask whether or not they are ready to drop everything to engage in that practice, they say that they cannot. That is no problem. But they often overlook the point that even before engaging in meditation and insight, often a whole lot of giving and morality is required. But when this is pointed out, they seem unwilling to engage in a bit of the latter which is often lacking, but what they need to set themselves up to go any further with their meditation and insight. To me, this is simply the reason why the Buddha did not automatically teach only the "higher teachings" to everyone who came along. A lot of preparation is required in many cases. Maybe it is symptomatic of the practice of the path as: insight, meditation, morality, giving. Wasn't it the other way around?

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Dan,

But why doesn't everyone follow the Buddha's instructions?

Don't ask me?

How many practitioners follow the Buddha's instructions to the point of attaining arahatship? And what differentiates between those who do and those who don't? Do you see what I am getting at?

I could give you multiple lists from the Sutta Pitaka that include none of what you're fishing for. For example:

Four foundation of Mindfulness (satipatthana)
1. Contemplation of the body (kayanupassana)
2. Contemplation of feelings (vedananupassana)
3. Contemplation of consciousness (cittanupassana)
4. Contemplation of mental qualities (dhammanupassana)

Four right exertions (sammappadhana)
1. Exertion for the non-arising of unskillful states
2. Exertion for the abandoning of unskillful states
3. Exertion for the arising of skillful states
4. Exertion for the sustaining of skillful states

Four bases of power (iddhipada)
1. Zeal (chanda)
2. Energy (viriya)
3. Consciousness (citta)
4. Discrimination (vimamsa or vīmaŋsā)

Five faculties (indriya)
1. Faith (saddha)
2. Energy (viriya)
3. Mindfulness (sati)
4. Concentration (samadhi)
5. Wisdom (panna)

Five powers (bala)
1. Faith (saddha)
2. Energy (viriya)
3. Mindfulness (sati)
4. Concentration (samadhi)
5. Wisdom (panna)

Seven factors of Enlightenment (bojjhanga)
1. Mindfulness (sati)
2. Investigation (dhamma vicaya)
3. Energy (viriya)
4. Joy (piti)
5. Tranquility (passaddhi)
6. Concentration (samadhi)
7. Equanimity (upekkha)

Noble Eightfold Path
1. Right View (samma ditthi)
2. Right Intention (samma sankappa)
3. Right Speech (samma vacca)
4. Right Action (samma kammanta)
5. Right Livelihood (samma ajiva)
6. Right Energy (samma vayama)
7. Right Mindfulness (samma sati)
8. Right Concentration (samma samadhi)

The above list collectively forms the 37 bodhipakkhiya-dhammā or "factors of enlightenment" and are enumerated in MN 77.

To me this boils down to the question of bodhicitta, but in order to have sufficient resolve to carry out the Buddha's instruction, one has to appreciate the incredible importance of this. And can this be appreciated without the deep cultivation of the paramis?

And of course "bodhicitta" is irrelevant, in this particular sub-forum being a Mahayana concept... nor is it necessary given the above list. As with any list from the Sutta Pitaka containing instructions to bhikkhus, neither is there any mention of cultivation throughout many previous lifetimes, nor any mention of the impossibility of attainment in this life if one's spiritual upbringing prior to birth was less than optimal... being in the human realm enables one to learn the Dhamma. Just to be clear... no one is denying that parami cultivation is useful.

Metta,
Retro.

[Paññāsikhara]

Greetings Dan,

But why doesn't everyone follow the Buddha's instructions?

Don't ask me?

My own thought is that it is because they have not prepared other necessary conditions.
Often that preparation may take a long time, and I'm not talking of hours or even years.

I've seen practitioners following the Dhamma for years, decades, but still obviously having a lot of confusion.
I often think about the teachings in the Culakammavibhanga Sutta:

18. "But here some woman or man when visiting a monk or brahman, asks: 'What is wholesome, venerable sir?... Or what, by my doing it, will be long for my welfare and happiness?' Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a happy destination... If instead he comes to the human state, he is wise wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to wisdom, that is to say, when visiting a monk or brahman, to ask: 'What is wholesome, venerable sir?... Or what, by my doing it, will be long for my welfare and happiness?'

But the message can take a long, long time to sink in. Even with a good teacher.
Certain requisites are absent, it seems.

How long does it take to develop these requisite conditions? ...

[Paññāsikhara]

Dan74

Just try asking the same question with the word "bodhi" and "panidhana" instead of "bodhi-citta". It amounts to exactly the same thing in the end, just the Theravada vocab is the only difference I think. ie. aspiration to awakening.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings venerable Paññāsikhara,

Yes, I concur... Right Intention and Right Effort are very important components of the Noble Eightfold Path and should not be sacrificed or neglected.



Metta,
Retro.

[Dan74]

Thank you for the correction and for the new vocab - I naively (or lazily) assumed that it would mean the same. Also thanks for the list, retro!

What I was "fishing" for is very much there, in the words like "exertion," "zeal", "energy", "faith", etc.

It's hard to know whether one has "the necessary spiritual upbringing" or the requisite roots, but that much work is needed is undeniable. To me this means a long hard look at my habits and a resolution about which way I want to go in this life. That's all. I don't want to speculate about what's possible and impossible in any given instance.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Dan,

...but that much work is needed is undeniable. To me this means a long hard look at my habits and a resolution about which way I want to go in this life. That's all. I don't want to speculate about what's possible and impossible in any given instance.

Good call.

Can it be my turn to choose the sutta of the day?

SN 22.101: Nava Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Metta,
Retro.

[Virgo]

Would be very keen to see some scriptural evidence to back up these ideas, preferably Nikayan.

metta
Jack

Hi Jack,

I'll just give you a link to a book. This book is essentially a collection of hundreds of quotes about the importance of the Perfections gathered from all over the Tipitaka with some commentary on each one.

This book will provide you with many quotes from the Tipitaka elucidating the importance of practicing the Ten Perfections for a long time. Without practicing the Perfections how can attachement and aversion be reduced? Without practicing the Perfections wisdom cannot be developed to the degree that it penetrates the nature of arising realities.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/3918097/The-P ... ightenment

The Perfections are praised and mentioned again and again in the Suttas as well. It is only in Commentaries, however, that they are all listed and grouped together as one group and referred to as "the Ten Perfections". The basis for their being grouped this way is the importance placed on each one of them individually for attaining enligthenment throughout the teachings of the Buddha, including in the Suttanta.

When one studies about the Perfections, one sees that it is only logical that one could fully let go of attachment to the body and so on when one has constantly practiced non-attachment throughout many lifetimes through practicing Generosity again and again and so on. Otherwise, how could the mind-stream be primed to let go of clinging completely?

My suggestion is to read the book linked above, which explains all Ten Perfections very well. The book is also special in that the author realizes the key role that the Perfection of Panna plays in the development of the other Perfections. Without panna giving is just giving; it is not a Perfection leading to Enlightenment. When based in panna it becomes a Perfection leading to enlightenment, however.

kevin

[puthujjana]

How did all those noble ones in the early days of the Buddhasasana, such as those featured in the Pali Canon, manage to spend "many. many lifetimes" prior practicing the perfections, when the Dhamma had been lost prior to the arrival of the most recent Buddha?

Are the Pāramīs only found in Buddhism? Or is it possible to cultivate them (except Paññā) while practicing other spiritual teachings?

[mikenz66]

Are the Pāramīs only found in Buddhism?

With the possible exception of wisdom (depending on whether you define it as particular Buddhist Wisdom) they seem to be common to all reasonably sensible teachings...

Metta
Mike

[Virgo]

How did all those noble ones in the early days of the Buddhasasana, such as those featured in the Pali Canon, manage to spend "many. many lifetimes" prior practicing the perfections, when the Dhamma had been lost prior to the arrival of the most recent Buddha?

Are the Pāramīs only found in Buddhism? Or is it possible to cultivate them (except Paññā) while practicing other spiritual teachings?

Hi puthujjana, and Mike,

It is certainly true that anyone can practice dana (generosity), khanti (patience), and all the other perfections but actually they are only Perfections leading to Enlightenment when born of Panna (and yes sometimes we have panna and do not know it). Otherwise, they don't really help one develop towards awakening much, if at all.

All the best,

Kevin