Forest dwelling, are the monks concern with wild animals?

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Forest dwelling, are the monks concern with wild animals?

Postby Wind » Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:03 am

By wild animals, I mean the dangerous man-eating kind like bears, tigers, mountain lions, or big poisonous snakes. How do forest monks deal with them since they are more expose to them?
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Re: Forest dwelling, are the monks concern with wild animals?

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:26 am

Lots of metta. One of the benefits of metta meditation is protection from animals (from Anguttara Nikaya 11.16) .

Also, for those who eat meat according the three-fold rule, meat from those kinds of animals are not allowed since they could attract those predators.
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Re: Forest dwelling, are the monks concern with wild animals?

Postby Wind » Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:37 am

David N. Snyder wrote:Lots of metta. One of the benefits of metta meditation is protection from animals (from Anguttara Nikaya 11.16) .

Also, for those who eat meat according the three-fold rule, meat from those kinds of animals are not allowed since they could attract those predators.


Oh I see. Do you have the link to that particular sutra?
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Re: Forest dwelling, are the monks concern with wild animals?

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:43 am

Wind wrote:Oh I see. Do you have the link to that particular sutra?


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .piya.html

See especially numbers 1, 5, 6, 7 on the list of 11 benefits of metta meditation.
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Re: Forest dwelling, are the monks concern with wild animals?

Postby Wind » Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:00 am

David N. Snyder wrote:
Wind wrote:Oh I see. Do you have the link to that particular sutra?


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .piya.html

See especially numbers 1, 5, 6, 7 on the list of 11 benefits of metta meditation.


Thanks. Strange, when I tried to look up that sutra on accesstoinsight, there was no link to 11.16 but clearly there is. Odd.
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Re: Forest dwelling, are the monks concern with wild animals?

Postby jcsuperstar » Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:51 am

from my talks with Thai monks its elephants that will get you more than tigers.. though ghosts seem to be a problem too
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Re: Forest dwelling, are the monks concern with wild animals?

Postby Thai_Theravada » Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:47 am

...
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Re: Forest dwelling, are the monks concern with wild animals?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:40 am

The most dangerous one is the deer with two horns on its chest. If a monk practises metta they tend to be attractive to these two-horned deer, and monks can be killed or seriously injured if they let them get too close.
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Re: Forest dwelling, are the monks concern with wild animals?

Postby chownah » Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:05 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:Lots of metta. One of the benefits of metta meditation is protection from animals (from Anguttara Nikaya 11.16) .

Also, for those who eat meat according the three-fold rule, meat from those kinds of animals are not allowed since they could attract those predators.

Do you have a reference to support your statement that eating certain kinds of meat attracts certain predators?
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Re: Forest dwelling, are the monks concern with wild animals?

Postby meindzai » Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:17 pm

Wind wrote:By wild animals, I mean the dangerous man-eating kind like bears, tigers, mountain lions, or big poisonous snakes. How do forest monks deal with them since they are more expose to them?


Oh my!

Most of what you've listed follows under "avoiding" below. Metta may help, though I wouldn't do it at the expense of skillful action like staying out of dangerous areas. (Meditating in a snake pit may not be advisable). Getting injured or killed is an occupational hazard. It happens.

"[4] And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by tolerating? There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, endures. He tolerates cold, heat, hunger, & thirst; the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles; ill-spoken, unwelcome words & bodily feelings that, when they arise, are painful, racking, sharp, piercing, disagreeable, displeasing, & menacing to life. The fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to tolerate these things do not arise for him when he tolerates them. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by tolerating.

"[5] And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by avoiding? There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, avoids a wild elephant, a wild horse, a wild bull, a wild dog, a snake, a stump, a bramble patch, a chasm, a cliff, a cesspool, an open sewer. Reflecting appropriately, he avoids sitting in the sorts of unsuitable seats, wandering to the sorts of unsuitable habitats, and associating with the sorts of bad friends that would make his knowledgeable friends in the holy life suspect him of evil conduct. The fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to avoid these things do not arise for him when he avoids them. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by avoiding.


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Re: Forest dwelling, are the monks concern with wild animals?

Postby puthujjana » Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:15 pm



:anjali:
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Re: Forest dwelling, are the monks concern with wild animals?

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:02 pm

chownah wrote:Do you have a reference to support your statement that eating certain kinds of meat attracts certain predators?
chownah


"One should not consume human flesh. Whoever should do so: a grave offense. And one should not consume meat without having reflected on it (on what it is). Whoever should do so: an offense of wrong doing." — Mv.VI.23.9

"One should not consume elephant flesh ... horse flesh ... dog flesh ... snake flesh ... lion flesh ... tiger flesh ... leopard flesh ... bear flesh ... hyena flesh. Whoever should do so: an offense of wrong doing." — Mv.VI.23.10-15

"One should not knowingly consume meat killed on purpose (for a bhikkhu). Whoever should consume it: an offense of wrong doing. I allow fish and meat that is pure in three respects: One has not seen, heard, or suspected (that it was killed on purpose for a bhikkhu)." — Mv.VI.31.14

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... .ch04.html

I think the explanation was in the Commentaries, that it is to prevent those predators from being attracted to that smell.
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Re: Forest dwelling, are the monks concern with wild animals?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:37 am

David N. Snyder wrote:I think the explanation was in the Commentaries, that it is to prevent those predators from being attracted to that smell.

It is in the Vinaya Culavagga Pali text. I know you can read some Pāli so I reproduce the entire passage below.

The reason for not eating human flesh is told in the story of Suppiyā — because it would not lead to the arising of faith in those who have none, or the growth of faith in those who have only a little. To eat human flesh is a grave offence.

The reasons given for proscribing the ten kinds of meat (human, elephant, horse, dog, snake, lion, tiger, leopard, bear, hyena) are different. To eat the other nine kinds of flesh is an offence of wrong-doing.

  • Elephant and horse meat was proscribed because they were royal animals, and the people criticised the monks for eating their flesh
  • Dog meat was considered disgusting
  • Snake meat was proscribed after the king of nāgas approached bhikkhus and warned them that some nāgas were lacking in faith and would harm them.
  • The meat of lions, tigers, leopards, bears, and hyenas was proscribed because those animals killed bhikkhus, having smelt the flesh they had eaten

169. Hatthimaṃsādipaṭikkhepakathā

281, Tena kho pana samayena rañño hatthī maranti. Manussā dubbhikkhe hatthimaṃsaṃ paribhuñjanti, bhikkhūnaṃ piṇḍāya carantānaṃ hatthimaṃsaṃ denti. Bhikkhū hatthimaṃsaṃ paribhuñjanti. Manussā ujjhāyanti khiyyanti vipācenti — “kathañhi nāma samaṇā sakyaputtiyā hatthimaṃsaṃ paribhuñjissanti. Rājaṅgaṃ hatthī, sace rājā jāneyya, na nesaṃ attamano assā”ti. Bhagavato etamatthaṃ ārocesuṃ. na, bhikkhave, hatthimaṃsaṃ paribhuñjitabbaṃ. Yo paribhuñjeyya, āpatti dukkaṭassāti.

tena kho pana samayena rañño assā maranti. Manussā dubbhikkhe assamaṃsaṃ paribhuñjanti, bhikkhūnaṃ piṇḍāya carantānaṃ assamaṃsaṃ denti. Bhikkhū assamaṃsaṃ paribhuñjanti. manussā ujjhāyanti khiyyanti vipācenti — “kathañhi nāma samaṇā sakyaputtiyā assamaṃsaṃ paribhuñjissanti. Rājaṅgaṃ assā, sace rājā jāneyya, na nesaṃ attamano assā”ti, Bhagavato etamatthaṃ ārocesuṃ. Na, bhikkhave, assamaṃsaṃ paribhuñjitabbaṃ. Yo paribhuñjeyya, āpatti dukkaṭassāti.

tena kho pana samayena manussā dubbhikkhe sunakhamaṃsaṃ paribhuñjanti, bhikkhūnaṃ piṇḍāya carantānaṃ sunakhamaṃsaṃ denti. Bhikkhū sunakhamaṃsaṃ paribhuñjanti. Manussā ujjhāyanti khiyyanti vipācenti — “kathañhi nāma samaṇā sakyaputtiyā sunakhamaṃsaṃ paribhuñjissanti, jeguccho sunakho paṭikūlo”ti. Bhagavato etamatthaṃ ārocesuṃ. Na, bhikkhave, sunakhamaṃsaṃ paribhuñjitabbaṃ. Yo paribhuñjeyya, āpatti dukkaṭassāti.

tena kho pana samayena manussā dubbhikkhe ahimaṃsaṃ paribhuñjanti, bhikkhūnaṃ piṇḍāya carantānaṃ ahimaṃsaṃ denti. Bhikkhū ahimaṃsaṃ paribhuñjanti. Manussā ujjhāyanti khiyyanti vipācenti — “kathañhi nāma samaṇā sakyaputtiyā ahimaṃsaṃ paribhuñjissanti, jeguccho ahi paṭikūlo”ti. Supassopi nāgarājā yena Bhagavā tenupasaṅkami, upasaṅkamitvā Bhagavantaṃ abhivādetvā ekamantaṃ aṭṭhāsi. Ekamantaṃ ṭhito kho supasso nāgarājā Bhagavantaṃ etadavoca — “santi, bhante, nāgā assaddhā appasannā. Te appamattakehipi bhikkhū viheṭheyyuṃ. Sādhu, bhante, ayyā ahimaṃsaṃ na paribhuñjeyyu”nti, Atha kho Bhagavā supassaṃ nāgarājānaṃ dhammiyā kathāya sandassesi...pe... Padakkhiṇaṃ katvā pakkāmi. Atha kho Bhagavā etasmiṃ nidāne etasmiṃ pakaraṇe dhammiṃ kathaṃ katvā bhikkhū āmantesi — “na, bhikkhave, ahimaṃsaṃ paribhuñjitabbaṃ. yo paribhuñjeyya, āpatti dukkaṭassā”ti.

tena kho pana samayena luddakā sīhaṃ hantvā sīhamaṃsaṃ paribhuñjanti, bhikkhūnaṃ piṇḍāya carantānaṃ sīhamaṃsaṃ denti. Bhikkhū sīhamaṃsaṃ paribhuñjitvā araññe viharanti. sīhā sīhamaṃsagandhena bhikkhū paripātenti. Bhagavato etamatthaṃ ārocesuṃ. Na, bhikkhave, sīhamaṃsaṃ paribhuñjitabbaṃ. Yo paribhuñjeyya, āpatti dukkaṭassāti.

tena kho pana samayena luddakā byagghaṃ hantvā...pe... Dīpiṃ hantvā...pe... Acchaṃ hantvā...pe... Taracchaṃ hantvā taracchamaṃsaṃ paribhuñjanti, bhikkhūnaṃ piṇḍāya carantānaṃ taracchamaṃsaṃ denti. Bhikkhū taracchamaṃsaṃ paribhuñjitvā araññe viharanti. Taracchā taracchamaṃsagandhena bhikkhū paripātenti. Bhagavato etamatthaṃ ārocesuṃ. Na, bhikkhave, taracchamaṃsaṃ paribhuñjitabbaṃ. Yo paribhuñjeyya, āpatti dukkaṭassāti.
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Re: Forest dwelling, are the monks concern with wild animals?

Postby jcsuperstar » Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:41 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:The most dangerous one is the deer with two horns on its chest. If a monk practises metta they tend to be attractive to these two-horned deer, and monks can be killed or seriously injured if they let them get too close.

:smile:
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Re: Forest dwelling, are the monks concern with wild animals?

Postby David N. Snyder » Sun Mar 07, 2010 5:52 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:It is in the Vinaya Culavagga Pali text. I know you can read some Pāli so I reproduce the entire passage below.

tena kho pana samayena luddakā sīhaṃ hantvā sīhamaṃsaṃ paribhuñjanti, bhikkhūnaṃ piṇḍāya carantānaṃ sīhamaṃsaṃ denti. Bhikkhū sīhamaṃsaṃ paribhuñjitvā araññe viharanti. sīhā sīhamaṃsagandhena bhikkhū paripātenti. Bhagavato etamatthaṃ ārocesuṃ. Na, bhikkhave, sīhamaṃsaṃ paribhuñjitabbaṃ. Yo paribhuñjeyya, āpatti dukkaṭassāti.

tena kho pana samayena luddakā byagghaṃ hantvā...pe... Dīpiṃ hantvā...pe... Acchaṃ hantvā...pe... Taracchaṃ hantvā taracchamaṃsaṃ paribhuñjanti, bhikkhūnaṃ piṇḍāya carantānaṃ taracchamaṃsaṃ denti. Bhikkhū taracchamaṃsaṃ paribhuñjitvā araññe viharanti. Taracchā taracchamaṃsagandhena bhikkhū paripātenti. Bhagavato etamatthaṃ ārocesuṃ. Na, bhikkhave, taracchamaṃsaṃ paribhuñjitabbaṃ. Yo paribhuñjeyya, āpatti dukkaṭassāti.


Thanks Bhante! So it is in the Canon.

:anjali:
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Re: Forest dwelling, are the monks concern with wild animals?

Postby Paññāsikhara » Sun Mar 07, 2010 6:02 am

I've known a few monks who are quite fearless in the face of snakes, and that includes some really poisonous ones too. In particular, one young Thai bhikkhu that I knew: When snakes would come into the seminary compound in Taiwan, he would just go and pick them up, and take them out again. I also have my own little story, when I removed a rather small looking snake from the Vihara. Only after taking it outside and showing it to someone else, was I informed that it was a spitting cobra (a "rinkel", as identified by the black and white "ring" markings around the hood). About two months before, a larger spitting cobra had attacked a dog in the area, nearly blinding it (they spit venom into the eyes, first). I wasn't afraid at the time, and the snake didn't seem aggressive toward me either. Animals, including snakes, are living beings too. We should be kind to them, and not hurt them. :heart:

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Re: Forest dwelling, are the monks concern with wild animals?

Postby PaulD » Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:29 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:The most dangerous one is the deer with two horns on its chest. If a monk practises metta they tend to be attractive to these two-horned deer, and monks can be killed or seriously injured if they let them get too close.


deer with two horns on chest? there's not such thing????
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Re: Forest dwelling, are the monks concern with wild animals?

Postby fabianfred » Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:01 am

PaulD wrote:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:The most dangerous one is the deer with two horns on its chest. If a monk practises metta they tend to be attractive to these two-horned deer, and monks can be killed or seriously injured if they let them get too close.


deer with two horns on chest? there's not such thing????


I think he means the female of the species :anjali:
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Re: Forest dwelling, are the monks concern with wild animals?

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:24 pm

I heard of one monk in the jungles of Sri Lanka who had a snake crawling into his lap while doing sitting meditation! fortunately it slithered away without getting too snug :tongue:
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