Panna Gained / Panna Lost?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Virgo
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Re: Panna Gained / Panna Lost?

Post by Virgo »

Stuart wrote: 2. it is like memory, which again is sustained for a period of time, but which I can again personally verify does regress at a point in the future.
Hello Stuart,

Yes, it is like your second option, as far as i understand.
Stuart wrote: This is like any other skill or attainment. In this life, I can certainly learn to play the guitar and maintain that skill for the duration of my life - maybe there will even be an inclination in my next life to play guitar (if I make it into the human realm) - but 100,000,000 life times in the hell realms? Maybe, I would have lost the skill. Likewise with panna ..... until stream entry of course.

Stuart
xxx
One may develop some degree of panna at some point (it takes it a long time for it to be very well developed and pass through the stages of insight), but then if one were to be in the lower realms for an extremely long time, for example, , panna would probably not develop significantly at that time, I don't think. However, the accumulation would still remain. The difference is that over time, ones accumulations of self-view, lobha, and dosa, and so on, can also grow and increase. This doesn't mean the wisdom developed is gone, from what I understand, but that there are other accumulations at play.

Devedatta, for example, the Buddha's cousin who created a schism in the Sangha and tried to turn some of the Buddha's followers away from him, is now suffering in hell for a period of 100,000 great aeons, but will become a PaccekaBuddha during his first birth in the human realm after hell. This shows that he had accumulated a great, great deal of panna, even though he still had defilments, and that wisdom accumulation will not be lost in the citta even over 100,000 aeons in the Avicci hell realm.

Kevin
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Virgo
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Re: Panna Gained / Panna Lost?

Post by Virgo »

Nina Van Gorkom writes:

"Different people react differently to what they experience, thus, different types of citta arise. What one person likes, another dislikes. We can also notice how different people are when they make or produce something. Even when two
people plan to make the same thing the result is quite different. For example, when two people make a painting of the same tree, the paintings are not at all the same. People have different talents and capacities; some people have no difficulty with their studies, whereas others are incapable of study. Cittas are beyond control; they have each their own conditions for their arising.

Why are people so different from one another? The reason is that they have different experiences in life and thus they accumulate different inclinations. When a child has been taught from his youth to be generous he accumulates generosity. People who are angry very often accumulate a great deal of anger. We all have accumulated different inclinations, tastes and skills.

Each citta which arises falls away completely and is succeeded by the next citta. How then can there be accumulations of experiences in life, accumulations of good and bad inclinations? The reason is that each citta which falls away is succeeded by the next citta. Our life is an uninterrupted series of cittas and each citta conditions the next citta and this again the next, and thus the past can condition the present. It is a fact that our good cittas and bad cittas in the past
condition our inclinations today. Thus, good and bad inclinations are accumulated.

We all have accumulated many impure inclinations and defilements (in Pali:kilesa). Kilesa is for instance greed (lobha), anger (dosa) and ignorance (moha). There are different degrees of defilements: there are subtle defilements or latent tendencies, medium defilements and gross defilements. Subtle defilements do not appear with the citta, but they are latent tendencies which are accumulated in the citta. At the time we are asleep and not dreaming there are no akusala cittas but there are unwholesome latent tendencies. When we wake up akusala cittas arise again. How could they appear if there were not in each citta accumulated unwholesome latent tendencies? Even when the citta is not akusala there are unwholesome latent tendencies so long as they have not been eradicated by wisdom." - Abhidhamma in Daily Life (http://www.zolag.co.uk/ebook.html)
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retrofuturist
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Re: Panna Gained / Panna Lost?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Virgo,
Virgo wrote:Sorry Retro, did you mean to say "That explains well that you're endorsing atman", or "That explains well that you're not endorsing atman"? ... Just to clarify.
Not endorsing atman.

Sorry for any confusion.

I'll go back and correct it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Panna Gained / Panna Lost?

Post by Virgo »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Virgo,
Virgo wrote:Sorry Retro, did you mean to say "That explains well that you're endorsing atman", or "That explains well that you're not endorsing atman"? ... Just to clarify.
Not endorsing atman.

Sorry for any confusion.

I'll go back and correct it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Thanks Retro.

Kevin
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ground
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Re: Panna Gained / Panna Lost?

Post by ground »

Stuart wrote:
TMingyur wrote:If there are many illusions to remove each removal of an illusion may be said to be "added" to the "preceding" removal of another illusion. In that sense one may say there is an "accumulation of removals", right?
TMingyur :anjali:

Whether this is said in a positive way 'accumulation of wisdom' or a negative way 'removal of delusion', the point remains the same .....

Is it a permanent uprooting of delusion, which gives rise to stream entry or is it a temporary weeding of delusion that will need to be done again and again as those very same weeds of delusion once again spring up?

Stuart
xxx

Stuart

Okay. I will participate in these speculations ;)
From the perspective of the subject it may be called "permanent" if the "depth" of insight that entailed a "removal" exceded a "certain limit" (sorry for the indefiniteness) and if not then it is not permanent but fluctuating, i.e. impermanent.
From the perspective of an observer of this subject the "removal" may never be called "permanent" since this observer may say that when this subject dies, i.e. has disappeared, then the frame of reference of "removal" has disappeared too and therefore "removal" has disappeared and what disappears cannot be called "permanent".

Kind regards
Last edited by ground on Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Panna Gained / Panna Lost?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Does the concept of "change of lineage" that is found in the Visuddhimagga have any relevance to the retaining of the wisdom associated with the path and fruit of nobility?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Panna Gained / Panna Lost?

Post by Stuart »

Kevin, All :anjali:

Thank you for your input. I started writing a response, but I think that I need to go and contemplate this for a while. ... :thinking: ...

Stuart
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Re: Panna Gained / Panna Lost?

Post by ground »

If panna would be an affirmatory positive phenomenon and not a mere removal then it would be a product and therefore impermanent even from the perspective of the subject.

Kind regards
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Re: Panna Gained / Panna Lost?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
TMingyur wrote:If panna would be an affirmatory positive phenomenon and not a mere removal then it would be a product and therefore impermanent even from the perspective of the subject.
Yes, it's this kind of logic that makes me wary of 'accumulations'.

Which in turn brings in the question of the comparability of the terms vijjha and panna

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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ground
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Re: Panna Gained / Panna Lost?

Post by ground »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
TMingyur wrote:If panna would be an affirmatory positive phenomenon and not a mere removal then it would be a product and therefore impermanent even from the perspective of the subject.
Yes, it's this kind of logic that makes me wary of 'accumulations'.

Which in turn brings in the question of the comparability of the terms vijjha and panna

Metta,
Retro. :)
Yes you may be right here that we may be actually talking about different phenomena. I just looked it up - panna - means "discerning wisdom". "Discerning" actually may be based on an affirmatory sort of wisdom that is impermanent due to being produced and also since it is dependent on impermanent concentration.

I could not find "vijjha" but just found Vijja-bhagiya Sutta
"These two qualities have a share in clear knowing. Which two? Tranquillity (samatha) & insight (vipassana).

"When tranquillity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Passion is abandoned.

"When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Discernment is developed. And when discernment is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned.

"Defiled by passion, the mind is not released. Defiled by ignorance, discernment does not develop. Thus from the fading of passion is there awareness-release. From the fading of ignorance is there discernment-release."
So according to this "insight" entails "panna" (discernment).

What does "Vijja-bhagiya" mean?
If you implied this term when you said "vijja" then "clear knowing" may be actually what I described as "removal" and i confused it with panna since here it reads:
1. Passion is abandoned (i.e. removal)
2. Ignorance is abandoned (i.e. removal)

Kind regards
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Re: Panna Gained / Panna Lost?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Yes, I meant vijja.

:thumbsup:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Panna Gained / Panna Lost?

Post by Stuart »

Thank -you all :anjali:

This is also helping me to understand better:

"Not Sure" - The Standard of the Noble Ones - Ajahn Chah

Stuart
xxx
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