Panna Gained / Panna Lost?

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Re: Panna Gained / Panna Lost?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:59 am

Greetings,

Does the concept of "change of lineage" that is found in the Visuddhimagga have any relevance to the retaining of the wisdom associated with the path and fruit of nobility?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Panna Gained / Panna Lost?

Postby Stuart » Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:01 pm

Kevin, All :anjali:

Thank you for your input. I started writing a response, but I think that I need to go and contemplate this for a while. ... :thinking: ...

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Re: Panna Gained / Panna Lost?

Postby ground » Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:25 am

If panna would be an affirmatory positive phenomenon and not a mere removal then it would be a product and therefore impermanent even from the perspective of the subject.

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Re: Panna Gained / Panna Lost?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:20 am

Greetings,

TMingyur wrote:If panna would be an affirmatory positive phenomenon and not a mere removal then it would be a product and therefore impermanent even from the perspective of the subject.

Yes, it's this kind of logic that makes me wary of 'accumulations'.

Which in turn brings in the question of the comparability of the terms vijjha and panna

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Panna Gained / Panna Lost?

Postby ground » Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:14 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

TMingyur wrote:If panna would be an affirmatory positive phenomenon and not a mere removal then it would be a product and therefore impermanent even from the perspective of the subject.

Yes, it's this kind of logic that makes me wary of 'accumulations'.

Which in turn brings in the question of the comparability of the terms vijjha and panna

Metta,
Retro. :)


Yes you may be right here that we may be actually talking about different phenomena. I just looked it up - panna - means "discerning wisdom". "Discerning" actually may be based on an affirmatory sort of wisdom that is impermanent due to being produced and also since it is dependent on impermanent concentration.

I could not find "vijjha" but just found Vijja-bhagiya Sutta
"These two qualities have a share in clear knowing. Which two? Tranquillity (samatha) & insight (vipassana).

"When tranquillity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Passion is abandoned.

"When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Discernment is developed. And when discernment is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned.

"Defiled by passion, the mind is not released. Defiled by ignorance, discernment does not develop. Thus from the fading of passion is there awareness-release. From the fading of ignorance is there discernment-release."

So according to this "insight" entails "panna" (discernment).

What does "Vijja-bhagiya" mean?
If you implied this term when you said "vijja" then "clear knowing" may be actually what I described as "removal" and i confused it with panna since here it reads:
1. Passion is abandoned (i.e. removal)
2. Ignorance is abandoned (i.e. removal)

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Re: Panna Gained / Panna Lost?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:15 am

Greetings,

Yes, I meant vijja.

:thumbsup:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Panna Gained / Panna Lost?

Postby Stuart » Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:39 pm

Thank -you all :anjali:

This is also helping me to understand better:

"Not Sure" - The Standard of the Noble Ones - Ajahn Chah

Stuart
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