What is the lay follower to do?

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Re: What is the lay follower to do?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:00 am

Greetings Mukunda,

Mukunda wrote:He experienced the results of his actions

Some people threw stuff at him because they didn't like him. Some people nailed Jesus to a cross because they didn't like him... it's hardly the first time "bad things" have happened to people just because they weren't liked by all others. Attributing it to "kamma" and "vipaka" is unnecessary, and sets a dangerous precedence for excusing the hatred of others in the name of them helping another person's kamma come to fruit. Ditto with the killing of sentient beings - it's not their "vipaka" to die. Angulimala didn't throw things at himself, Jesus didn't nail himself to the cross, and animals don't slit their own throats so they can be turned into meat.

Mukunda wrote:HOW he perceived or experienced them depends on his mental state.

Right... and since he was an arahant, the unpleasant sensation could not rightly be called suffering. But since all non-arahant sentient beings do suffer (and that's who I'm sure Wind is talking about here), they don't much fancy being harmed or killed.

As for the immediate question of the precept against killing in the name of livelihood, I would recommend placing priority on the wording used in suttas associated with Right Livelihood, and letting "do not (intentionally) kill" take care of itself, within that framework.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: What is the lay follower to do?

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:28 am

Hi retro,

As usual, I have some problems with your interpretations of kamma and vipaka in these cases.
retrofuturist wrote:Well, actually no, since vipaka is mental... but it's not really consequential to this topic.

Do you have a Sutta reference for that?

I know "vipaka" is defined as "mental" in the Abhidhamma, in the technical sense that the pleasant or painful feelings that arise (when experiencing good or bad stuff) are "vipaka". But that is in the context of all of the other Abhidhamma stuff. I'd be interested in an argument based purely on Suttas (which may well be possible).

Mukunda wrote:He experienced the results of his actions

retrofuturist wrote:Some people threw stuff at him because they didn't like him. Some people nailed Jesus to a cross because they didn't like him... it's hardly the first time "bad things" have happened to people just because they weren't liked by all others. Attributing it to "kamma" and "vipaka" is unnecessary, and sets a dangerous precedence for excusing the hatred of others in the name of them helping another person's kamma come to fruit.

Who is arguing that kamma/vipaka should be used as an excuse? That some people misunderstand something isn't actually an argument for a particular point of view.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Then Ven. Angulimala, early in the morning, having put on his robes and carrying his outer robe & bowl, went into Savatthi for alms. Now at that time a clod thrown by one person hit Ven. Angulimala on the body, a stone thrown by another person hit him on the body, and a potsherd thrown by still another person hit him on the body. So Ven. Angulimala — his head broken open and dripping with blood, his bowl broken, and his outer robe ripped to shreds — went to the Blessed One. The Blessed One saw him coming from afar and on seeing him said to him: "Bear with it, brahman! Bear with it! The fruit of the kamma that would have burned you in hell for many years, many hundreds of years, many thousands of years, you are now experiencing in the here-&-now!" [3]

[3] This incident illustrates the kammic principle stated in AN 3.99.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

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Re: What is the lay follower to do?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:37 am

Greetings Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:As usual, I have some problems with your interpretations of kamma and vipaka in these cases.
retrofuturist wrote:Well, actually no, since vipaka is mental... but it's not really consequential to this topic.

Do you have a Sutta reference for that?

I know "vipaka" is defined as "mental" in the Abhidhamma, in the technical sense that the pleasant or painful feelings that arise (when experiencing good or bad stuff) are "vipaka". But that is in the context of all of the other Abhidhamma stuff. I'd be interested in an argument based purely on Suttas (which may well be possible).

If you wish to prove that vipaka means otherwise in the suttas, I think the emphasis would be on you to prove how and why it is so... not me.

Mike wrote:This incident illustrates the kammic principle stated in AN 3.99.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

I disagree with your association, though I agree with what AN 3.99 says.

Are we getting back on topic or deviating off into an old debate?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: What is the lay follower to do?

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:51 am

retrofuturist wrote:Are we getting back on topic or deviating off into an old debate?

An old debate... Sorry for bringing it up again...

:offtopic:
You don't have to look far to find physical effects of kamma in the suttas:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"There is the case where a woman or man is one who harms beings with his/her fists, with clods, with sticks, or with knives. Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in the plane of deprivation... If instead he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is sickly wherever reborn. This is the way leading to sickliness: to be one who harms beings with one's fists, with clods, with sticks, or with knives.

Ven Nyana
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... ip%C4%81ka
Vipāka: 'kamma-result' or 'effect of action', is any kammically morally neutral mental phenomenon e.g. bodily pleasant or painful feeling, sense-consciousness, etc., which is the result of advantageous or disadvantageous intentional action kamma through body, speech or mind, done either in this or some previous life. Totally wrong is the belief that, according to Buddhism, everything is the result of previous action. Never, for example, is any kammically advantageous or disadvantageous intentional action the result of former action, being in reality itself kamma. On this subject see: titthāyatana kamma, Tab. I; Fund II. Cf. A. III, 101; Kath. 162 Guide, p. 80.

Kamma-produced kammaja or kamma-samutthāna material things are never called kamma-vipāka as this term may be applied only to mental phenomena.

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... th%C4%81na
Samutthāna: 'origination'. There are 4 kinds of origination of material phenomena, namely: through kamma, consciousness, temperature, nutriment. For example, 'kamma-produced' kamma-s. = kammaja kamma-born are the sense organs, sexual characteristics, etc., which, according to their nature, are conditioned either through advantageous or disadvantageous kamma constructions intentional actions; see: paticcasamuppāda 2 in a previous existence. 'Mindproduced', i.e. consciousness-produced citta-samutthāna = cittaja are bodily and verbal expression viññatti. For a detailed exposition, see Vis.M XX. - App..

Appendix: http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... append.htm
Samutthāna: kamma- (= kamma-ja), utu-, āhāra-s.: these terms are found only in the Com. citta-samutthāna-rūpa however, occurs already in Dhs. (§ 586) of the Abh. Canon; and is indicated very often in Patth., e.g.tam cittam samutthānānañ ca rūpānam The teaching of the origin of matter is, of course, already implied in the old sutta texts.

:focus:

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Re: What is the lay follower to do?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:25 am

When the Buddha was asked about wrong livlihood he declined to answer unless pushed to respond, and even when pushed didn't say a livelyhood was wrong, but the motivation behind the livelyhood had to be correct.

there are two suttas I know of, on regarding a military man and an actor but cant remember where they are precicely.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: What is the lay follower to do?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:28 am

Greetings Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:You don't have to look far to find physical effects of kamma in the suttas


Sure, you can even go to TV to see this...!



Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: What is the lay follower to do?

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:01 am

Hi Manapa,
Manapa wrote:When the Buddha was asked about wrong livlihood he declined to answer unless pushed to respond, and even when pushed didn't say a livelyhood was wrong, but the motivation behind the livelyhood had to be correct.

there are two suttas I know of, on regarding a military man and an actor but cant remember where they are precicely.

See this thread, for example:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... =765#p9309

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Re: What is the lay follower to do?

Postby Clueless Git » Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:42 am

Mukunda wrote:
chownah wrote:Isn't there a Sutta where the Buddha tells a story about parents who kill and eat their child because it was the only way that any of them could survive.....maybe it is applicable to this thread.


The story about the parents is intended to show the proper attitude towards food; that its purpose should be for sustenance and not sense pleasure.

'Lo Mukunda :)

I always thought that story carried the message that even when it is a genuine survival decision that one should be no less reluctant/distressed/whatever at having to eat the flesh of any sentient being than one would be reluctant/distressed/whatever to eat the flesh of their own child.

I think that because only that message is commensurate, love and compassion towards all sentient beings wise, with the common demoninator of buddha nature as described in the Four Immeasurable Hearts. That common demoninator being 'equanamity'.
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Re: What is the lay follower to do?

Postby Mukunda » Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:33 pm

Clueless Git wrote:
Mukunda wrote:
chownah wrote:Isn't there a Sutta where the Buddha tells a story about parents who kill and eat their child because it was the only way that any of them could survive.....maybe it is applicable to this thread.


The story about the parents is intended to show the proper attitude towards food; that its purpose should be for sustenance and not sense pleasure.

'Lo Mukunda :)

I always thought that story carried the message that even when it is a genuine survival decision that one should be no less reluctant/distressed/whatever at having to eat the flesh of any sentient being than one would be reluctant/distressed/whatever to eat the flesh of their own child.


I think a better way to put it is one should be no more eager to eat the flesh of another being than they would be to eat the flesh of their own child. The bottom line is the intentional taking of life, regardless of motivation, is unwholesome kamma. It is possible, I suppose, that motivation may be a mitigating factor in the fruition of that kamma, but I challenge anyone to show me where the Buddha gave an example of any potentially positive fruition to come as a result of intentional killing.
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Re: What is the lay follower to do?

Postby chownah » Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:23 pm

"Without support, they will go broke quickly and end up homeless."

I think this is a good idea....go into homelessness...aka becoming a monk.....

People advance because of conditions...if your condition needs changing then change it....if you can't change it or don't want to change it then "oh well".....people mostly are not stuck in one place although I am well aware of the third world and that many people in fact are stuck in one place. For those that can not move then my advise is do what you must to survive...for those who can move then maybe a move is in order. I now live half way around the world from where I was born and it happened because I saw that a move was needed....so focused my life goals on moving....and then after many years I made the move.....but just so that I don't mislead anyone; I eat meat almost every day...and am helping my wife raise cows which of course will mostly be eaten.

By the way....if I help my wife raise cows but they are her cows and not mine then am I guilty of wrong livelihood....?...
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Re: What is the lay follower to do?

Postby Mukunda » Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:25 pm

chownah wrote:By the way....if I help my wife raise cows but they are her cows and not mine then am I guilty of wrong livelihood....?...


I'm not sure "guilty of wrong livelihood" is as correct as engaged in wrong livelihood.
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Re: What is the lay follower to do?

Postby chownah » Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:04 pm

Ok....engaged in then.
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