sort of Poll on Mindfulness - sati

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Re: sort of Poll on Mindfulness - sati

Postby m0rl0ck » Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:32 pm

Ok guys. My apologies, i didnt realize the concept of attention as expressed in the zen story above was foreign enough to the theravada concept of sati as to cause a problem. What do i know, im just a dumb zen guy :)
"Even if you've read the whole Canon and can remember lots of teachings; even if you can explain them in poignant ways, with lots of people to respect you; even if you build a lot of monastery buildings, or can explain inconstancy, stress, and not-self in the most detailed fashion ... The only thing that serves your own true purpose is release from suffering.

"And you'll be able to gain release from suffering only when you know the one mind."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html
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Re: sort of Poll on Mindfulness - sati

Postby PeterB » Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:34 pm

Apology accepted.
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Re: sort of Poll on Mindfulness - sati

Postby PeterB » Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:36 pm

alan wrote:We have heard it a million times because it is so easy to quote. It's been quoted so many times because it is so widely disseminated. It's meaningless because it says nothing of value. Don't agree? Put it to a test. A wild animal stalking prey is paying attention. Is she now a Buddhist?
Don't like that one? Ok, just pay attention. And then do something with it. Attention alone, my good friend, is not a Buddhist teaching. There is also a bit about Right Effort. If you can show otherwise, I'd love to hear about it.
--just some guy on the internet.

and sila.
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Re: sort of Poll on Mindfulness - sati

Postby alan » Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:55 pm

Apologize if I'm pointing out the obvious, but it's an 8-fold path. If the Buddha had meant to tell us that attention attention attention was the way to liberation, wouldn't he just call it a one-fold path?
I'm just a guy on the internet, don't have any caliber.
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Re: sort of Poll on Mindfulness - sati

Postby Sobeh » Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:55 pm

retrofuturist wrote:A sustained awareness of what arises, changes and passes away


This summary definition of sati is in complete agreement with my recent reading of the Satipatthanasamyutta.
:heart:
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Re: sort of Poll on Mindfulness - sati

Postby m0rl0ck » Thu Apr 01, 2010 5:10 pm

alan wrote:Apologize if I'm pointing out the obvious, but it's an 8-fold path. If the Buddha had meant to tell us that attention attention attention was the way to liberation, wouldn't he just call it a one-fold path?
I'm just a guy on the internet, don't have any caliber.


In fairness to the tradition, it follows the 8-fold path as well :)
"Even if you've read the whole Canon and can remember lots of teachings; even if you can explain them in poignant ways, with lots of people to respect you; even if you build a lot of monastery buildings, or can explain inconstancy, stress, and not-self in the most detailed fashion ... The only thing that serves your own true purpose is release from suffering.

"And you'll be able to gain release from suffering only when you know the one mind."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html
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Re: sort of Poll on Mindfulness - sati

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:12 pm

m0rl0ck wrote:Ok guys. My apologies, i didnt realize the concept of attention as expressed in the zen story above was foreign enough to the theravada concept of sati as to cause a problem. What do i know, im just a dumb zen guy :)


Hi m0rl0ck,
There is nothing for you to appologise for!
in my understanding of this forum (which is why I placed this thread here) other schools expressions are NOT excluded from being appropriate, so long as they do not contradict the theravadan pov's, or ditract from the.

as I asked for personal understanding of what mindfulness is, poetic licence is more than allowed here and encouraged rather than some academic sutta quoting match.

I didn't put this in the personal experiance as I am not asking for personal experiance, or looking for any traditions pov, rather personal pov's which are or can aid others in understanding the varied Theravadin ideas of what Mindfulness is, which your quote meats the criteria of in my understanding.

your Zen quote may be used more times than whatever, as some have said, but it is sometimes these cliché things that we need to reflect on most.
BTW I have heard & read Theravadin teachers say X is simply X, it isn't just a zen thing :tongue: and thank-you for answering the OPQ
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: sort of Poll on Mindfulness - sati

Postby adosa » Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:46 pm

Are snarky replies to others' contributions part of the practice? If so, I'm out.
:group:

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Re: sort of Poll on Mindfulness - sati

Postby bodom » Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:04 pm

adosa wrote:Are snarky replies to others' contributions part of the practice? If so, I'm out.
:group:

adosa


Some here seem to think that they have the only true understanding of sati and its manifold meanings and applications and that they have the authority to put down another's personal interpretation of it. But they themselves cannot practice basic mindfulness of speech. What they are expressing are mere definition's of sati from the suttas and seem to lack any personal understanding of how to actually practice it.

:anjali:
Last edited by bodom on Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: sort of Poll on Mindfulness - sati

Postby bodom » Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:17 pm

PeterB wrote:Apology accepted.


There should have been no need for an apology to begin with. Morlock is the one who deserves the apology.

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: sort of Poll on Mindfulness - sati

Postby BlackBird » Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:26 am

bodom wrote:
adosa wrote:Are snarky replies to others' contributions part of the practice? If so, I'm out.
:group:

adosa


Some here seem to think they understand sati and its manifold meanings and that they have the authority to put down another's personal interpretation of it. But they themselves cannot practice basic mindfulness of speech.


Well said.

metta
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"And so, because this Teaching is so different from what Westerners are accustomed to, they will try to adapt the Teaching to their own framework. What they need to learn to do is not to adapt the Teaching to their own point of view but to adapt their own point of view to the Teaching. This is called saddhá, or faith, and it means giving oneself to the Teaching even if the Teaching is contrary to one’s own preconceived notions of the way things are."- Ven Bodhesako

Nanavira Thera's teachings - An existential approach to the Dhamma | Ven. Bodhesako's essay on anicca
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Re: sort of Poll on Mindfulness - sati

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:47 am

Greetings,

Fair enough, yes this is a Theravada forum, but I had enough trouble thinking of a definition of "mindfulness" that did not use the word "mindfulness" itself!

"Attention means attention" is useful to the extent that it restricts it to what it is without venturing into what it isn't (e.g. conceptual proliferation)

Anyone else have any understandings on sati to share?

:focus:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: sort of Poll on Mindfulness - sati

Postby bodom » Fri Apr 02, 2010 1:04 am

I strongly recommend reading the chapter on Sati in Analayo's Satipatthana commentary for an extensive in depth look at sati and its various meanings and uses within the tipitaka.

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: sort of Poll on Mindfulness - sati

Postby PeterB » Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:23 am

bodom wrote:
PeterB wrote:Apology accepted.


There should have been no need for an apology to begin with. Morlock is the one who deserves the apology.

:anjali:

You missed my point entirely. I have to remember that we Brits use language in a way not always clear to others. It was a joke.
Of course he had nothing to apologise for.

But lets leave it there. Before a common language divides us further.. :smile:

The serious note within in my post was that for me at least, answering a question with a Zen anecdote raises more problems than it solves..not least it fires my cliche alarm.
Perhaps I have spent too long being utterly baffled on ZFI by a set of self referencing concepts that I had no access to :tongue:
But if it helps others then fine. It was only a point of view .....
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Re: sort of Poll on Mindfulness - sati

Postby PeterB » Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:42 am

Sobeh wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:A sustained awareness of what arises, changes and passes away


This summary definition of sati is in complete agreement with my recent reading of the Satipatthanasamyutta.
:heart:

Its also in line with what I was taught.
That " sustained awareness" of course needs frequent renewal..
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Re: sort of Poll on Mindfulness - sati

Postby bodom » Fri Apr 02, 2010 1:37 pm

PeterB wrote:You missed my point entirely. I have to remember that we Brits use language in a way not always clear to others. It was a joke....Of course he had nothing to apologise for.


Then I offer my apologies to you Peter.

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: sort of Poll on Mindfulness - sati

Postby alan » Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:43 pm

Bodom: I've ordered the book you recommended and look forward to reading it. Also looked up "snark" on urban dictionary.
Can't apologize for my rapid-fire brain, which has no tolerance for dumbness. And I'll stand by my statements.
However, it is true that it is nice to be nice, and I'm not always nice. Sorry for the ruffled feathers.
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Re: sort of Poll on Mindfulness - sati

Postby PeterB » Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:46 pm

bodom wrote:
PeterB wrote:You missed my point entirely. I have to remember that we Brits use language in a way not always clear to others. It was a joke....Of course he had nothing to apologise for.


Then I offer my apologies to you Peter.

:anjali:

Bodom you are a sweetie, but you have nothing to apologise for either...
We are all in this together learning and more learning..

:anjali:

Peter.
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Re: sort of Poll on Mindfulness - sati

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Apr 02, 2010 8:47 pm

:offtopic:
now lets get back to the OP question
:focus:
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: sort of Poll on Mindfulness - sati

Postby Annapurna » Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:10 pm

paying attention in a particular way: on purpose, in the present moment, and non-judgmentally.
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