Questions regarding rising and falling of phenomena.

[Wind]

When a phenomenon rise and fall where does it rise from and where does it fall to? And what is the duration of one moment of rising and falling? Are all phenomena rising and falling on a continuous basis without break or are there moments of absences of rising and falling?

[Ben]

Hi Wind,

When a phenomenon rise and fall where does it rise from and where does it fall to?

From that which conditioned its genesis and to that which it conditions.

And what is the duration of one moment of rising and falling?

Depends on the particular phenomena. Cittas rise and fall, according to the Abhidhamma, a "mind-moment" rises and falls billions of times within the blink of an eye. The rise and fall of rupa is, apparently, seventeen times slower than that of mental phenomena.

Are all phenomena rising and falling on a continuous basis without break or are there moments of absences of rising and falling?

I think they are rising and falling continuously. Try and think of it as 'vibrating' or 'oscillating'.

The duration of material phenomena: The lifespan of a citta is termed, in the Abhidhamma, a mind-moment (cittakkhana). This is a temporal unit of such brief duration that, according to the commentators, in the time that it takes for lightening to flash or the eyes to blink, billions of mind moments can elapse. Nevertheless, though seemingly infintessimal, each mind-moment in turn consists of three sub-moments - arising (uppada), presence (thiti), and dissolution (bhanga). Within the breadth of a mind-moment, a citta arises, performs its momentary function, and the dissolves, conditioning the next citta in immediate succession. Thus, through the sequence of mind-moments, the flow of consciousness continues uninterrupted like the waters in a stream...

Material phenomena as well pass through the same three stages of arising, presence, and dissolution, but for them the time required for these three stages to elapse is equal to the time it takes for seventeen cittas to arise and perish. The stages of arising and dissolution are equal in duration for both material and mental phenomena, but in the case of material phenomena the stage of presence is equal to forty-nine sub-moments of mental phenomena.
-- Ch. 4 Compendium of the Cognitive Process, A Comprehensive Manual of the Abhidhamma, Bhikkhu Bodhi

kind regards

Ben

[tiltbillings]

Cittas rise and fall, according to the Abhidhamma, a "mind-moment" rises and falls billions of times within the blink of an eye.

According to the very late Abhidhamma. The Abhidhamma Pitaka texts do not specify a set time that I have seen.

Also, billions of times within a a blink of an eye is actually rather meaningless other than a way of saying that mind contents move with great rapidity.

[Wind]

Hi Wind,

When a phenomenon rise and fall where does it rise from and where does it fall to?

From that which conditioned its genesis and to that which it conditions.

In other words, do you mean when a phenomenon disappears, it vanish back to unconditioned state?

[Ben]

Hi Tilt
I'm still waiting for my mail-order cittometer to arrive. When it does - I'll let you know how fast my cittas rise and fall!
BTW, do you have a reference that supports your contention that the billions of mind moments in a blink of an eye is in fact a later commentarial construct? Certainly, Ven Bodhi mentions disputes between commentators on the validity of the sub-moment classification but he seems to be silent on the genesis of the duration of the mind-moment idea.
Thanks!

Ben

[Ben]

Hi Wind
Rather than focus on my words, have a look at the words of Bhikkhu Bodhi. Ven Bodhi is a reliable authority whereas I am not.
I also think Venerable explains things much better than I.
metta

Ben

[Wind]

Hi Wind
Rather than focus on my words, have a look at the words of Bhikkhu Bodhi. Ven Bodhi is a reliable authority whereas I am not.
I also think Venerable explains things much better than I.
metta

Ben

The portion you posted of Ven Bodhi explained the duration of mind-moment well. But I don't see where he spoke about where such phenomenon rise from or where it disappear to. Do you have a link where he expands on this subject?

[Ben]

No Wind, I don't have a link, just the hardcopy of his work.
I recommend it!
kind regards

Ben

[pt1]

Do you have a link where he expands on this subject?

Online version of that book

Best wishes

[tiltbillings]

Hi Wind
Rather than focus on my words, have a look at the words of Bhikkhu Bodhi. Ven Bodhi is a reliable authority whereas I am not.
I also think Venerable explains things much better than I.
metta

Ben

The portion you posted of Ven Bodhi explained the duration of mind-moment well. But I don't see where he spoke about where such phenomenon rise from or where it disappear to. Do you have a link where he expands on this subject?

Where does a sound come from and where does it go? Be careful not assume a thingness to "phenomenon."

[Alex123]

When a phenomenon rise and fall where does it rise from and where does it fall to? And what is the duration of one moment of rising and falling? Are all phenomena rising and falling on a continuous basis without break or are there moments of absences of rising and falling?

It doesn't come from anywhere when it 'rises', nor it goes anywhere when it 'falls'. When you light a match, A flame doesn't go from some storehouse, nor does it go to flame-heaven when the flame ceases.

Rise & fall simply means appearance (due to causes) and cessation (due to absence of those causes).


With metta,

Alex

[Nibbida]

I'm the farthest thing from an authority on this, especially all matters Abidhamma, but I'll take a stab at it anyway. I'm in Abidhamma kindegarten.

The experience of "arising" of a phenomenon refers to the causes/conditions coming together, while the experience of passing refers to some or all of the underlying causes/conditions changing. A "thing" never existed, so there is nowhere that it came from and there's nowhere for it to go. The "object" is a concept that we impose on the experience of changing phenomena, a continuum. I've heard several teachers express this saying to look at "objects" as verbs rather than nouns.

To use the example of a tree, there is no "tree" so to speak, there is the (changing, interdependent) process of tree-ing. The tree comes into existence by certain causes coming together, and ceases the same way. But really, what we're referring to is our perception of the tree (the visual image of it, for example). Like anything else, that perception arises and passes based on causes & conditions.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Wind,

When a phenomenon rise and fall where does it rise from and where does it fall to? And what is the duration of one moment of rising and falling? Are all phenomena rising and falling on a continuous basis without break or are there moments of absences of rising and falling?

I think this question only has value in experiential rather than ontological terms, so I would recommend setting aside any notion of a thing that objectively and ontologically rises, exists or passes away... and focus on the experience of rising and falling, or perhaps more correctly, change. Why would change be more correct? Because notions of rise and fall are relative to a conceptualisation of how a certain "thing" was previously (e.g. the sound of the car engine got louder, the smell of the incense is diminishing)... and hence, fall back onto a past reification of experience based on ignorance. Even a citta is a conceptualised "thing" and reification is not connected with emptiness.

As Bhikkhu Nanananda says in the Nibbana Sermons...

Whatever becomes an object of that conceiving, by that very conception it becomes otherwise. That is to say that an opportunity arises for an otherwise-ness, even as `death' has come together with `birth'. So conceiving, or conception, is itself the reason for otherwise-ness. Before a `thing' becomes `otherwise', it has to become a `thing'. And it becomes a `thing' only when attention is focussed on it under the influence of craving, conceit and views and it is separated from the whole world and grasped as a `thing'. And that is why it is said:

Yaṃ yañhi lokasmim upādiyanti,
teneva Māro anveti jantuṃ.
"Whatever one grasps in the world,
By that itself Māra pursues a being."

Knowledge and understanding are very often associated with words and concepts, so much so that if one knows the name of a thing, one is supposed to know it. Because of this misconception the world is in a tangle. Names and concepts, particularly the nouns, perpetuate the ignorance in the world.

Hence, it is important to distinguish between concept and reality.

Metta,
Retro.

[Virgo]

Hi Wind
Rather than focus on my words, have a look at the words of Bhikkhu Bodhi. Ven Bodhi is a reliable authority whereas I am not.
I also think Venerable explains things much better than I.
metta

Ben

The portion you posted of Ven Bodhi explained the duration of mind-moment well. But I don't see where he spoke about where such phenomenon rise from or where it disappear to. Do you have a link where he expands on this subject?

Where does a sound come from and where does it go? Be careful not assume a thingness to "phenomenon."

Why not? I thought this was a Buddhist board.

kevin

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Virgo,

Would you care to clarify what you meant by that rather cryptic comment?

Metta,
Retro.