the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
The issue is not what is his view; it is what you are trying to do with his words, which has been pointed out to your repeatedly and which you are trying to ignore.

But what it his view?
How can you argue against my view of what his view is, if you dont know what your view of his view is yourself?
Cute, but no cigar.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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retrofuturist
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
I am not arguing that rebirth is true or not; rather, I am simply pointing out it is found as a literal teaching in the suttas, as has been repeatedly and clearly demonstrated in this thread. Your appeal to the here and now is beside the point and perfect example of the NOT here and now.
Doesnt Buddha say that liberation is here and now?

That would stand regardless of if rebirth happens post mortem (which I dont care about, but you seem too :/) because of the three marks existing regardless ...
Again, your appeal to the "here and now" is beside the point. No one is denying the "here and now" practice that the Buddha taught, but it was taught within a larger context, part of which is a teaching of literal rebirth. But you keep trying to dodge this.
It would be an appeal if it was put forward as an objective argument in debate, but it's not.

Craig just seems to be saying that it's not relevant to his practice - a position that he has substantiated on several occasions.

It seems there's a disconnect here between discussion of subjective experience, and arguing of objective fact.... causing this topic to go around in circles (as it does).

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

And if someone proves categorically that Buddha didnt teach rebirth

And that death is oblivion

I would still practice


:thumbsup:


The point is how we react to these things, and to let Buddha arise in there here and now

In this moment, as it is
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
The issue is not what is his view; it is what you are trying to do with his words, which has been pointed out to your repeatedly and which you are trying to ignore.

But what it his view?
How can you argue against my view of what his view is, if you dont know what your view of his view is yourself?
Cute, but no cigar.

Don't dodge tilt

You cant say I don't understand a persons teaching without understanding it youself

So

How can you argue against my view of what his view is, if you dont know what your view of his view is yourself?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

That's nice, but it still does not change the fact that literal rebirth, as a teaching of the Buddha, is found in the suttas.
Fine :thumbsup:

But dont we end up practising the same?
I am not making a comment about your state of mind. I am commenting on what is physically obvious.
You cant see my body language so its not "physically obvious"
So, you are suffering?
Usually I would suffer with these discussions, wanting rebirth to be true but arguing that it isnt and being caught up in views and opinions

Now I just notice the feeling :)
I am not. I am rather enjoying this.
As long as its minful contact friend :)

:twothumbsup:
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
I am not making a comment about your state of mind. I am commenting on what is physically obvious.
You cant see my body language so its not "physically obvious"
Oh, good grief. I am not talking about your body language. I am talking about the page of stuff that you have written.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
Again, your appeal to the "here and now" is beside the point. No one is denying the "here and now" practice that the Buddha taught, but it was taught within a larger context, part of which is a teaching of literal rebirth. But you keep trying to dodge this.
Not at all, As I said it doest matter to me either way

So you can prove it all you want, the practice is still the same for me

So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas

That impacts my practice .... 0
I do not give a rat's ass about your practice. That is your business, not mine, and your practice has not been my focus here.
  • So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas
Nothing more needs to be said.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
I am not making a comment about your state of mind. I am commenting on what is physically obvious.
You cant see my body language so its not "physically obvious"
Oh, good grief. I am not talking about your body language. I am talking about the page of stuff that you have written.

Tilt It takes two to tango

So If my response means I am clinging to a view, then so are you for responding

Unless we both are not clinging and are merely discussing :)

BTW What is Huang Po's view?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
Again, your appeal to the "here and now" is beside the point. No one is denying the "here and now" practice that the Buddha taught, but it was taught within a larger context, part of which is a teaching of literal rebirth. But you keep trying to dodge this.
Not at all, As I said it doest matter to me either way

So you can prove it all you want, the practice is still the same for me

So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas

That impacts my practice .... 0
I do not give a rat's ass about your practice. That is your business, not mine, and your practice has not been my focus here.
  • So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas
Nothing more needs to be said.


Ok :?

So we need to be aware of the here and now to stop rebirth in mind moments, and possible future lives

No different from my argument, so I dont get you'r gloating :? :popcorn:
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

and please dont ignore
How can you argue against my view of what his view is, if you dont know what your view of his view is yourself?


:thinking:
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:and please dont ignore
How can you argue against my view of what his view is, if you dont know what your view of his view is yourself?
Ignored.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:and please dont ignore
How can you argue against my view of what his view is, if you dont know what your view of his view is yourself?
Ignored.

How can you argue that I dont understand Huang Po's argument (and so I should not use it, which was you argument not mine) and yet not understand it yourself?

Your cant disagree with my understanding/use if you dont understand it or use it yourself ... How can you disagree with something you don't understand yourself...

So please tell us how you understand Huang Po

Otherwise your post means nothing :juggling:
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
Otherwise your post means nothing
That does not matter to me.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

No gloating. The point is made, and it is the only one in this stupid thread that I care about. So, there it is.
So you had a vested interest in "proving" rebirth to be true :/

And please answer my Huang Po question, which you fail to answer
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
Otherwise your post means nothing
That does not matter to me.

So in other words you dont know :broke:

Dodge :alien:
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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