the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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BlueLotus
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by BlueLotus »

tiltbillings wrote:You read Pali? If you do, you will know that it is a highly idiomatic language. What do think "paraloka"is an idiom for?
Nope. I have a friend here who reads pali and quite familiar with suttas. What is "paraloka" an idiom for by the way?
tiltbillings wrote:If it is right view, it leadsto nibbana, and and as an unawaened individual "right view is with effluents" is exactly where you start from.
This is one way of looking at it. Anyone can read the sutta and say "No that is right view with effluents. A view which encourage effluents does not lead to dispassion. Therefore the noble right view does not include any such views on other worlds".
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BlueLotus
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by BlueLotus »

tiltbillings wrote: This debate is a modern thing, not a traditional thing.
Doesn't make it right just because it is the established view. As I said, once upon a time people thought the world was flat. I am not denying it but pointing out why your argument is not solid.
tiltbillings wrote: You do not have to believe that rebirth is true. That is your choice, but literal rebirth is an integral part of the Buddha's teachings, as the suttas show.
Yea I think it is an integral part. Rebirth sure appears a lot in suttas. Still belief in it is not a necessity to one's practice.
tiltbillings wrote: And being very much within the framework of traditional Buddha-Dhamma, all that stuff is there in the Thai forest tradition. You might want to read the biography of Ajahn Mun sometime. You do not have to believe in those things to practice, but you cannot meaningfully re-frame the teachings to say that those things are not part of the teachings.
I have been following forest tradition teachers for almost a year before moving to Thailand and then to Sri Lanka. Most of these teachers emphasis on the present moment and the current life. Most of them do not give over-emphasis to the rest. Overall message is it is fine to set them aside.
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BlueLotus
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by BlueLotus »

Ñāṇa wrote: There is no possibility of attaining stream entry while holding a wrong view. And denying the existence of the next world is a wrong view.
So what you saying is anyone who doesn't believe in rebirth is unable to attain even stream entry leave aside nibbana. Is that right? Basically, any Buddhist who doesn't believe in rebirth is practicing in vain? So your suggestion is "either believe in it or no nibbana for you". Sounds pretty "Islamic fundie" to me. If Buddha really taught dhamma this way then he would have been not much better than the bible or the Quran. :tongue:
Ñāṇa wrote: the whims of your own head-trip
For someone who is a step ahead in the right view to nibbana, you do throw out an awful lot of personally insulting remarks and ridicule to others opinions don't you think. lolz.
Nyana
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by Nyana »

BlueLotus wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote: There is no possibility of attaining stream entry while holding a wrong view. And denying the existence of the next world is a wrong view.
So what you saying is anyone who doesn't believe in rebirth is unable to attain even stream entry leave aside nibbana. Is that right?
It's what the suttas and every Buddhist tradition says.

There are a couple of ways of working with skepticism about rebirth:

(1) acknowledge that rebirth is an integral part of the teachings while recognizing that the teachings on rebirth don't resonate with oneself at this time and setting them aside so as to practice other aspects of the Buddha's teaching to the best of one's abilities, or

(2) dismiss the teachings on rebirth and attempt to reinterpret the entire Buddhist tradition without reference to it, asserting that the teachings on rebirth are not important.

The first approach is actually recommended to skeptics in the suttas. The second approach is never recommended in the suttas and amounts to trying to remake the Budhadhamma in one's own image.

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daverupa
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by daverupa »

There are more than those two ways, Nana. It's disingenuous to call it an either-or dichotomy, attempting to control the course of a discussion with such straw men. Pāṭaliya had a fine time setting it all aside, at the Buddha's recommendation.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Nyana
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by Nyana »

daverupa wrote:There are more than those two ways, Nana. It's disingenuous to call it an either-or dichotomy, attempting to control the course of a discussion with such straw men. Pāṭaliya had a fine time setting it all aside, at the Buddha's recommendation.
Setting it aside and engaging in other practices is mentioned in #1 above.
vinasp
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

Some argue that we should believe in rebirth because MN 117 explains that right view
includes: 'there is this world and the next world.'

But it is also a part of right view that 'there are spontaneously reborn beings.'

Those who ask us to believe these things have an obligation to explain what they mean by
them.

Regards, Vincent.
suttametta
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by suttametta »

No one is asking anyone to believe anything. You don't need to believe in rebirth to one day come to the direct experience of it in the practice of the path. An essential element of the path in fact is to leave opinions aside and neither to accept or reject any opinion. As the mind goes deeper into meditation, naturally one can see past lives and future lives of oneself and others, along with other psychic powers. I'm saying this is a factual event. It doesn't require your belief to be true or untrue. It can be tested for yourself. Or you might meet a teacher with amazing psychic power.
santa100
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by santa100 »

From Ven. Thanissaro: ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... birth.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )
...nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings [beings born without the need for parents in heaven or hell]; no contemplatives or brahmans who, faring rightly and practicing rightly, proclaim this world and the next after having directly known and realized it for themselves...
vinasp
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

We also need to pay attention to the meaning of the term 'deva'. Some are making a sharp
distinction between human beings and deva's. But there was no such distinction at the time
that the Discourses were composed. The category of human beings blends into the category
of deva's.

There are three kinds of Deva:

1. Conventional, that is, kings and princes, who are addressed as 'Deva!'.
2. Purified, that is, Buddhas and arahants.
3. Spontaneously born (this includes some human beings).

See: Thus Have I Heard, by Maurice Walshe, introduction page 44.

Regards, Vincent.
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Dhammanando
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Dhammanando »

santa100 wrote:From Ven. Thanissaro: ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... birth.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )
...nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings [beings born without the need for parents in heaven or hell]; no contemplatives or brahmans who, faring rightly and practicing rightly, proclaim this world and the next after having directly known and realized it for themselves...
Two remarks regarding "no spontaneously reborn beings [beings born without the need for parents in heaven or hell]"

1. Although 'spontaneously born' is the usual meaning of opapaatika, in the context of mundane right view the commentaries understand it to denote rebirth in general, no matter which of the four modes of generation is involved.

2. When opapaatika is used in the sense of 'spontaneously-born', the range of beings thus born is not confined to those in heaven and hell:
"What is spontaneous generation? There are devas and denizens of hell and certain human beings and some beings in the lower worlds; this is called spontaneous generation. These are the four kinds of generation." (MN.i.73)

Spontaneously-born humans are those that arise at the start of a world-cycle through the decadence and increasingly coarse appetites of the Abhassara Brahmas.

The "beings in the lower worlds" are petas and suchlike.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
santa100
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by santa100 »

Thank you for the detailed explanation.. :anjali:
Spiny Norman
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by Spiny Norman »

BlueLotus wrote: So, irrespective of what the suttas say of "cessation of suffering", they think the "only way out of suffering" is to end existing. So the whole "cycle of rebirth and samsara" come in to play.
You're correct in saying that some suttas talk about ending suffering here and now, but I wonder whether this is referring to the cessation of mental suffering - as opposed to the cessation of both mental and physical suffering? Maybe looking at the Pali would help to clarify this.

An obvious example is the Arrow Sutta where one is ( still ) struck by the first arrow ( physical pain ) but not by the second arrow ( associated mental pain ). Bearing in mind that in the ancient world being struck by an arrow would have been a traumatic life-threatening injury, analogous to a gun-shot wound today.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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equilibrium
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by equilibrium »

It must be "mental" as one cannot end suffering by simply ending this very life.....the root cause (mental) has not been resolved.....therefore there will be an effect.....future life of suffering.
Spiny Norman
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by Spiny Norman »

There seems to be a wide range of views in debates like this. Is this a fair summary?

1. The Buddha didn't teach rebirth and the realms, it was added in later.
2. The Buddha taught rebirth and the realms, but only as skillful means or metaphor.
3. The Buddha taught rebirth and the realms and intended it literally rather than metaphorically - but these teachings are redundant to Buddhist practice.
4. The Buddha taught rebirth and the realms and intended it literally rather than metaphorically - and these teachings are important for Buddhist practice.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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