the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:So we can agree then, via your continuous dodge, that you havent a clue what Huang Po meant

And so you previous posts are, shall we say, spurious at best
Your opinion on this matter matters not to me. This, however, is a good thing:
  • So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas

:shrug:

All that matters is that beings use the teachings to let go of the here and now, all concepts and views

Wisdom is found in being aware of feelings of aversion of attraction when we are greeted with the concept of rebirth :)
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
"If you students of the Way wish to become Buddhas, you need study no doctrines whatever, but learn only how to avoid seeking for and attaching yourselves to anything" Zen Master Huang Po
Huang Po's doctrine.




Ajahn Chah
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice.
Ajahn Chah explained.

Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing.
Ajahn Chah explained.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:So we can agree then, via your continuous dodge, that you havent a clue what Huang Po meant

And so you previous posts are, shall we say, spurious at best
Your opinion on this matter matters not to me. This, however, is a good thing:
  • So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas

All that matters is that beings use the teachings to let go of the here and now, all concepts and views

Wisdom is found in being aware of feelings of aversion of attraction when we are greeted with the concept of rebirth
Also, it probably doesn't hurt to accurately, as possible, portray the Buddha's teachings.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

So do not "become" someone who accepts rebirth

Neither "become" someone who rejects it

Nor "become" someone who doesnt care about it

Rather be Buddha-nature, be aware of the view as it arises, be aware of the feelings that arise in connection with it and see how the feelings of like, dislike or indifference are anicce, dukkha and anatta

:D

Or grasp or avert from rebirth and fall into mara's trap :rolleye:
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:So do not "become" someone who accepts rebirth

Neither "become" someone who rejects it

Nor "become" someone who doesnt care about it

Rather be Buddha-nature, be aware of the view as it arises, be aware of the feelings that arise in connection with it and see how the feelings of like, dislike or indifference are anicce, dukkha and anatta



Or grasp or avert from rebirth and fall into mara's trap
But the Buddha did teach it. And, as he said, he taught only what is true and useful (MN 58).
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by lyndon taylor »

Much more than likely you are going to be reborn, whether you believe it is going to happen, or believe it won't, isn't going to change anything, its just going to happen!!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

But the Buddha did teach it. And, as he said, he taught only what is true and useful (MN 58).
Well it is true and useful

True as in rebirth of "Me" and useful because we can you it to see the jati of "me"

And as I said, if this carries on past physical death, we need to practice the same

And that life is not mine, just as the next second is not mine

We would still need to rest in the original mind :)
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
But the Buddha did teach it. And, as he said, he taught only what is true and useful (MN 58).
Well it is true and useful

True as in rebirth of "Me" and useful because we can you it to see the jati of "me"

And as I said, if this carries on past physical death, we need to practice the same

And that life is not mine, just as the next second is not mine

We would still need to rest in the original mind :)
Original mind. Another Mahayana concept.

Anyway, as far as the Buddha is concerned, it is useful and true that
  • So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

lyndon taylor wrote:Much more than likely you are going to be reborn, whether you believe it is going to happen, or believe it won't, isn't going to change anything, its just going to happen!!

Unless we rest in the here and now and give rise to Buddha-Nature

That is we strengthen awareness, so that it is unbroken and we see dhammas as they are, and then Buddha/Original Mind, our true home, manifests

Then we simply are "That" and so there is no "me" and so no "birth" of "me" and so there is "deathless", Nirvana :broke:


"I" will only be "born" If I don't understand contact and feelings
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Original mind. Another Mahayana concept.
Was Ajahn Chan a "Mahayanist s" for using the concept "original mind"?

Even if he was, these are just concepts we just to realise non-attachment
Anyway, as far as the Buddha is concerned, it is useful and true that
Of course :) xxx
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:Much more than likely you are going to be reborn, whether you believe it is going to happen, or believe it won't, isn't going to change anything, its just going to happen!!

Unless we rest in the here and now and give rise to Buddha-Nature
How are you using this word? Is there a reason why you need to use Mahayana jargon here. Maybe Dharma Wheel or Zen Forum International might be a better fit for you.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
Original mind. Another Mahayana concept.
Was Ajahn Chan a "Mahayanist s" for using the concept "original mind"?
Do you know anything about his Mahayana influences?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas

For me

Sumedho
The only thing that’s certain about the future—the death of the body—is something we try to ignore. Just thinking about the word death stops the mind, doesn’t it? It does for me. It’s not particularly polite or politically correct to speak of death in casual conversation. What is death? What will happen when I die? Not knowing upsets us. But it is unknown, isn’t it? We don’t know what will happen when the body dies.

We have various theories—like reincarnation or being rewarded by a better rebirth or being punished by a worse birth. Some people speculate that once you’ve attained human birth, you may still be reborn as a lower creature. And then there’s the school that says no, once you’ve taken birth in the human form, then you cannot be reborn as a lower creature. Or the belief in oblivion—once you’re dead, you’re dead. That’s it. Nothing left. Finito. The truth of the matter is that nobody really knows. So we often just ignore it or suppress it.

But this is all happening in the now. We’re thinking of the concept of death in the present. The way the word death affects consciousness is like this. This is knowing not knowing in the now. It’s not trying to prove any theory. It’s knowing: the breath is like this; the body like this; the moods and mental states are like this. This is developing the path. Saying “like this” is just a way of reminding oneself to see this moment as it is rather than to be caught in some idea that we’ve got to do something or find something or control something or get rid of something.

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... nd_Now.htm
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
Original mind. Another Mahayana concept.
Was Ajahn Chan a "Mahayanist s" for using the concept "original mind"?
Do you know anything about his Mahayana influences?

It doesnt matter to me as long as a teaching aims at non-attachment
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

[/quote]How are you using this word? Is there a reason why you need to use Mahayana jargon here. Maybe Dharma Wheel or Zen Forum International might be a better fit for you.[/quote]

I use it because it's used in the Thai Theravada Teachings I recieve

Buddha-Nature is the "one who knows"

That is awareness, "intuitive awareness" as Ajahn Sumedho puts it

The one who accepts everything, sees everything and wants and rejects nothing

The true refuge
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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