Questions regarding rising and falling of phenomena - REDUX

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Questions regarding rising and falling of phenomena - REDUX

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:30 am

Wind wrote:When a phenomenon rise and fall where does it rise from and where does it fall to? And what is the duration of one moment of rising and falling? Are all phenomena rising and falling on a continuous basis without break or are there moments of absences of rising and falling?
I think it is worth looking at this question again without all the diversion that has followed its first consideration. To focus this discussion it will be based in sutta stuff and Mahasi Sayadaw/Goenka/U Ba Khin type Satipatthana/bare attention type practice.

When a phenomenon rise and fall where does it rise from and where does it fall to?
Part of the problem is that we are stuck with a language that tends to make things sound rather static. An example that might help make this clearer, I hope: speak a word. The sound is a phenomenon, but not an ontological or metaphysical thing. There is no need to think in those terms. It is the mind-body process that we are paying attention to, for it is there that the Dhamma unfolds.

Sound rises from a whole host of conditions, physical and mental. Before the various conditions came into play, there is no sound and as the conditions stop or significantly change there ceases to be sound. Sound is not a thing; rather, it is a dynamic process that is different at any one instant one might look at it and analyze it (with sound equipment or even one’s ears) - that is, there is no instant that sound is not in a process of change. It is with the use of language, talking about it, conceptualizing about it - that seems to make it static. Sound arises from causes and conditions; sound itself "is" an ever changing process. Sound does not go anywhere when the causes and condition for it cease; sound simply ceases, though it may be part of the conditioning and cause for the arising something else.

And what is the duration of one moment of rising and falling?
That would be an artificial construct used to talk about things, which may have its use, but as we pay attention to things - as we experience them without comment, without concepts - the notion of a set duration is neither really necessary nor is it what we really experience.

Are all phenomena rising and falling on a continuous basis without break or are there moments of absences of rising and falling?
If it is compounded, conditioned, it changes. Whatever we pay attention to without comment, with mindfulness and concentration will be seen as changing.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19405
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Questions regarding rising and falling of phenomena - REDUX

Postby PeterB » Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:56 pm

"Duration" is also not computable because time is among the phenomena that arise. Time too arises co-dependantly.
PeterB
 
Posts: 3903
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Questions regarding rising and falling of phenomena - REDUX

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:49 am

the perception of impermanence should be cultivated for the removal of the conceit 'I am.' For when one perceives impermanence, Meghiya, the perception of not-self is established. When one perceives not-self one reaches the removal of the conceit 'I am,' which is called Nibbana here and now." Ud 37 (4.1)

It is worth noting that "the perception of impermanence" is cultivated by watching, without comment, the rise and fall of that we hear, taste, touch, see, smell and cognize.

"Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya.

"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering."
-- Ud 1.10 PTS: Ud 6 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19405
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Questions regarding rising and falling of phenomena - REDUX

Postby Prasadachitta » Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:44 pm

Well Done!

Tilt

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
User avatar
Prasadachitta
 
Posts: 974
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:52 am
Location: San Francisco (The Mission) Ca USA


Return to General Theravāda discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: gavesako, Goofaholix, Nicolas, Samraj, Spiny Norman and 11 guests