If a stream-winner...

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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salmon
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by salmon »

:goodpost: retro...

I think that should address quite a few of Virgo's points too?

I would come right out here and say that I have encountered ariyans and have learnt much about them and from their behaviour, but would you believe my claim? ;)

OT: A good read about a what a lay ariyan might appear to be like would be the autobiography of Dipa Ma. She's a legendary teacher of the modern day world. :reading:
~ swimming upstream is tough work! ~
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Wind
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by Wind »

The Buddha says the stream-winner may declare:

'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!'

That statement is from this sutta:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Kenshou
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by Kenshou »

I'd believe that you believe what you claim. :tongue:

I think that this has all been really over-romanticized. I don't believe that the requirements for stream-entry are anything that a diligent practitioner should not be able to achieve, and I am implying that I think such people exist. If I reach the end of this life without achieving that or more, then I'd be disappointed with myself.
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Bodom,
bodom wrote:I dont want the idea in my head I can break the precepts and still achieve stream entry.
Fair enough, but on the flipside, its also worth paying heed of the caveat provided in that aforementioned reference (http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=50" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )
Nanavira Thera wrote:Why am I glad that you are shocked to learn that a sekha bhikkhu can be fond of talk (and worse)? Because it gives me the opportunity of insisting that unless you bring the sekha down to earth the Buddha's Teaching can never be a reality for you. So long as you are content to put the sotāpanna on a pedestal well out of reach, it can never possibly occur to you that it is your duty to become sotāpanna yourself (or at least to make the attempt) here and now in this very life; for you will simply take it as axiomatic that you cannot succeed.
Interesting. Similar view to Daniel Ingram... :juggling:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3717" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mike
Last edited by mikenz66 on Wed May 05, 2010 5:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
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retrofuturist
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:Interesting. Similar view to Daniel Ingram... :juggling:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3717" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
To the extent of saying that nobility is possible in this day and age, yes.

To the extent of redefining the classifications of nobility so that they become inconsistent with the sutta, no, not at all.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by Zhalmed Pawo »

bodom wrote:Licchavi Sutta: To the Licchavi
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
On one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Vesali in the Gabled Hall in the Great Forest. Then Nandaka, the chief minister of the Licchavis, went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there the Blessed One said to him: "Nandaka, a disciple of the noble ones endowed with four qualities is a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening. Which four?

"There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones is endowed with verified confidence in the Awakened One...in the Dhamma...in the Sangha.

"He/she is endowed with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration.
Thank you.

It seems that anyone who has 'real faith' in the Three Jewels and is 'truly ethical', has attained the path of stream-entry, and is an Ariyan. No need to get rid of the first three fetters, no need to realize anatta or sunnata, no need to purify mind from attachement and hatred, for this attainment - they come later on the Magga. Also no need for vipassana at this stage.

But what does the expression "verified confidence" mean? Is it translation of saddha, or something else, like that understanding or accepting the idea of kamma well enough so as to avoid negative kamma.

Does this mean that faith induced ethics equals the first stage of Nobility?
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by Reductor »

Zhalmed Pawo wrote: But what does the expression "verified confidence" mean?
Before entry to the path, your views reflect the Dhamma. After sotapanna it is the Dhamma that reflects your views. Does that make sense? The actual confidence is like a man you're confident in telling you that a certain city is clean and bright. You trust him and feel no doubt. Because of that trust you visit the city, and are completely struck by how clean and bright it actually is. Although you didn't mistrust your friend, you certainly have a very good reason now to say 'yes, he was right, it is very clean and bright.'
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Zhalmed Pawo wrote:But what does the expression "verified confidence" mean? Is it translation of saddha, or something else, like that understanding or accepting the idea of kamma well enough so as to avoid negative kamma.
I take it to mean that the "house-builder" has been discovered, and accordingly the path to cessation can be clearly seen.

It does not however, mean that all ten fetters have been removed, only that at least the first three have, but having seen the path, it is travelled until the destination is reached.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Zhalmed Pawo
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by Zhalmed Pawo »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Zhalmed Pawo wrote:But what does the expression "verified confidence" mean? Is it translation of saddha, or something else, like that understanding or accepting the idea of kamma well enough so as to avoid negative kamma.
I take it to mean that the "house-builder" has been discovered, and accordingly the path to cessation can be clearly seen.

It does not however, mean that all ten fetters have been removed, only that at least the first three have, but having seen the path, it is travelled until the destination is reached.
Still, this is not clear to me.

What is the difference between an Ariyan person on the path of stream-entry and an Ariyan person having the fruit of stream-entry?
And what is the difference, if any, between faith-follower (saddhanusari) Ariyan and truth-follower (dhammanusari) Ariyan at this initial stage?

I am under the impression that having the fruit of stream-entry would entail that one has eradicated the three lowest fetters, or attained the Dhamma-cakkhu, the Dhamma-eye, but that having attained the path of stream-entry would not. If both types would have same attainments as per the fetters, they would be just a single category. There must be a difference somewhere.

Somehow it seems that faith-follower would be 'a weaker case' of truth-follower. The first merely has reasoned faith, as per the Licchavi Sutta, but the latter actually sees himself, like Kondanna, the first Ariyan disciple of the Buddha. Having seen the Dhamma, one has Dhamma-eye, or the house-builder is found, and thereby the three lower fetters destroyed.

Or what? :reading:
rowyourboat
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by rowyourboat »

I have been puzzling about the precept issue of stream entrants for years.The suttas suggest that it is impossible to for a stream entrant to perform the really terrible deeds in retro's post above. However the description of the usual five precepts does says 'unbroken, unsplattered' etc. This method of describing suggests to me (I wonder if it is a particularly asian way of describing something) that his conduct in terms of precepts is 'not extremely bad'. However this should not be an excuse to break them. It is notable that there are no examples of stream entrants breaking precepts either (sarkani became a stream entrant at the point of death -due to drinking?!- and was a faith follower before this destined to become a stream entrant in his current life).

Shame and fear of wrong doing becomes an important factor in achieving non-returner stages according to some suttas. I think there is something about linking negative core beliefs ('I am a bad person') with acts based on craving,aversion and delusion ('..if I do') ie- developing hiri-otappa (shame and fear of wrongdoing).

The arahanth is incapable of breaking the five precepts according to the suttas (sorry no quotes available to hand).

with metta

RYB
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rowyourboat
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by rowyourboat »

avecca-pasadh- translated into verified confidence, also unshakeable confidence/faith call it what you will (but not blind faith)- after seeing from their own experience that there is an escape from the samsara-the rounds of existence. it would be like a man in a desert being told the way to an oasis- having gone there and quenching his thirst has confidence/faith/delight in the man who gave him instructions on how to get there.

with metta
:anjali:
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Zhalmed Pawo wrote:What is the difference between an Ariyan person on the path of stream-entry and an Ariyan person having the fruit of stream-entry?
And what is the difference, if any, between faith-follower (saddhanusari) Ariyan and truth-follower (dhammanusari) Ariyan at this initial stage?
I thought I had already posted the following, but I appear to be mistaken. Have a look at this and http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=51" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - hopefully it will address your questions.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by Zom »

Some more for this topic -)
A fragment from my Q-and-A session (June 2009) with Ajahn from Thai Dhammayut Nikaya. He is said to have supernatural powers and considered by some thai lay people as arahant; don't remember what is his name ;-/):
Q: Some people say that when person becomes a sotapanna, he sees and experiences nibbana for a short moment, but after that (insight) he doesn’t see it. What can you say about that?

A: This is not nibbana. This is only emptiness. Putthujana understands emptiness on one level. Sotapanna – on another. Sakadagami – on more deep level. Anagami – on yet more deep level.

Q: But this is not yet nibbana, is it?

A: Yes.

Q: So his knowledge is not the knowledge of arahant, even a little bit?

A: Yes. Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami – they don’t have this yet. Nibbana is not emptiness. Nibbana is when you let go of body and mind. Emptiness is still body and mind.

Q: It is said that Sotapanna will be born 6 more times (7 if we count this life). Also it is said that he destroys a fetter called “doubt” (about Buddha-Dhamma-Sangha). That means that he can’t have doubts about that. But when he is born in the next life, how it happens that he has no doubts? Does he have some memories about this attainment? Or is this some kind of “inexplicable blind faith”? It is normal for any person to have doubts when he first hears about Buddha teachings in his life, because he has no past-life memory and he has no experience yet.

A: He is born and he has khandhas, and he will have doubts. Because this is natural. But his mind has already changed.

Q: So will he have doubts but not so strong enough to lead him off the path?

A: Yes, he can’t follow another path. He still has doubts in his khandhas, because he has sannya and sankhara. But he has no doubts in his mind. Mind is on the path to nibbana.

Q: Do I understand correctly that deep inside his mind he has no doubts, but on the level of ideas he has doubts?

A: His mind is developed up to the higher level. He sees Dhamma. Those who see Dhamma, see Buddha. This is the level of Sotapanna.

Q: So these doubts are on the level of ideas and intellect, but not on a more deep level, am I right?

A: Yes. Khandhas of Putthujana (ordinary person) and Sotapanna are the same. But their minds differ.

Q: Is it possible that a person who hears Dhamma and understands it on a deep level becomes a Sotapanna without knowing it, while Buddha sees that and may say that now he is a Sotapanna?

A: Yes, sometimes this can happen like that. Sometimes people don’t know how to name it. They have no name for it.

Q: Some say that there are 4 types of Ariyas. Others say about 8 types – that sotapattimagga and sotapattiphala are different persons, not a single one. What is your point of view?

A: There are 8 types. Sotapattimagga and Sotapatiphala.

Q: So, for example, Sotapatimagga can be like that for months or years, and then he realizes the truth and becomes Sotapattiphala. Am I right?

A: Yes, you understand correctly. Path (for example) can take up a month or a year. And then you get phala. You understand everything correctly.
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retrofuturist
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Zom,

Interesting - thanks for sharing.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by Zhalmed Pawo »

retrofuturist wrote:
Zhalmed Pawo wrote:What is the difference between an Ariyan person on the path of stream-entry and an Ariyan person having the fruit of stream-entry?
And what is the difference, if any, between faith-follower (saddhanusari) Ariyan and truth-follower (dhammanusari) Ariyan at this initial stage?
I thought I had already posted the following, but I appear to be mistaken. Have a look at this and http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=51" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - hopefully it will address your questions.
Thank you Retro (again), but sadly this does not answer my questions. You indeed had posted that link before, about two pages before, but it made as little sense to me then as it does now. Sorry. Maybe I'm just daft, or maybe the text simply does not answer my questions. Who knows... :cry:

To put this briefly: As there are eight types of Ariyans, the four pairs, one in the path and one having the fruit, I am asking that what exactly is the difference between the Ariyans who are (1) on the path, and (2) having the fruit, of stream entry? This is, after all, a very simple question, and surely there are Suttas that can inform us. This cannot be that difficult, can it? :tongue: (Yes yes, I know this is difficult, for otherwise I wouldn't have to ask these things... :mrgreen: )

Considering that the stream-entrants just might be the statistical majority of all the Ariyans on this planet, one would suppose that there might be quite a lot of material about these initial stages. Material based on the Suttas, that is.
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