If a stream-winner...

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Chula
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by Chula »

David N. Snyder wrote:Even anagamis have ... some sense desires.
A little off-topic, but wanted to make a small correction: anāgāmī's do no have any sense desire - just desire for form (rūparāga) and desire for the formless (arūparāga).
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Wind
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by Wind »

This might not add to the discussion but I personally prefer the term "stream-enterer" rather than "stream-winner". The word "winner" puts too much emphases on a prize of some sorts while "enterer" place more emphasis on accomplishing an important step on the path.
Freawaru
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by Freawaru »

thereductor wrote:If a person were to claim on this board that they are a stream-winner, what would your thought be on that? And how would you respond on the forum itself?

It seems that people don't want to be mistaken as a stream-winner (or higher), or that those phrases that might be associated with entering the path are responded to with some venom.
I think there would be only one reason for an aryan to claim "aryanship": if it would increase the effort of people. If the reaction would be: if THAT person can reach sotapanna it can't be so hard, I can do it, too. If you ask me too many practitioners block themselves by considering themselves not able enough.

But I doubt this would be the reaction. I recall Ven. Nanavira Thera's experience with it: everybody placing him on some kind of pedestal ! :shrug:
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Wind
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by Wind »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
I would certainly consider what I've seen in their postings to date, with a particular eye for a stable and consistent temperament. Does their speech and behaviour accord with someone who realises the noble truths?
Wouldn't their past posting be less relevant prior to their declaration as indicators of their attainments? A person who realises the noble truth should be expected to have a new found temperament so I would put more weight on his future posting over a long period to see if it indeed reflect those of the noble ones rather than discounting their attainments simply because of their past misdeeds, as we know before one becomes stream-enterer they are still subject to wrong views and wrong actions.
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acinteyyo
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by acinteyyo »

Wind wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
I would certainly consider what I've seen in their postings to date, with a particular eye for a stable and consistent temperament. Does their speech and behaviour accord with someone who realises the noble truths?
Wouldn't their past posting be less relevant prior to their declaration as indicators of their attainments? A person who realises the noble truth should be expected to have a new found temperament so I would put more weight on his future posting over a long period to see if it indeed reflect those of the noble ones rather than discounting their attainments simply because of their past misdeeds, as we know before one becomes stream-enterer they are still subject to wrong views and wrong actions.
And how do you suppose to be able to distinguish what is ill spoken from what is well spoken, if not being at least a sotapanna yourself? A puthujjana doesn't have right view, how could he identify a noble person. It would be nothing else but supposition. Cuz as I said, no matter how much you keep looking how one behaves, finally what you may think he is or is not, this will be not for sure, as long as you don't know the Dhamma for yourself.
best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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Wind
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by Wind »

acinteyyo wrote:
Wind wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
I would certainly consider what I've seen in their postings to date, with a particular eye for a stable and consistent temperament. Does their speech and behaviour accord with someone who realises the noble truths?
Wouldn't their past posting be less relevant prior to their declaration as indicators of their attainments? A person who realises the noble truth should be expected to have a new found temperament so I would put more weight on his future posting over a long period to see if it indeed reflect those of the noble ones rather than discounting their attainments simply because of their past misdeeds, as we know before one becomes stream-enterer they are still subject to wrong views and wrong actions.
And how do you suppose to be able to distinguish what is ill spoken from what is well spoken, if not being at least a sotapanna yourself? A puthujjana doesn't have right view, how could he identify a noble person. It would be nothing else but supposition. Cuz as I said, no matter how much you keep looking how one behaves, finally what you may think he is or is not, this will be not for sure, as long as you don't know the Dhamma for yourself.
best wishes, acinteyyo
I agree. No amount of speculation can completely erase one's doubts except when they accomplish it themselves.
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Annapurna
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by Annapurna »

I think we feel what is well said, because we won't resist it, but open up even to criticism.

The Buddha spoke in this way. Somebody not as accomplished may not be able to discern why he is pleased though.


With metta,

Annapurna
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Dhammabodhi
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by Dhammabodhi »

Hello,

Talking of claiming attainment of Jhanas, there are some noble people here who have done this, and to be sure I've got immense inspiration and motivation from their posts. I'm "highly underqualified" (if there is such a term) to judge someone's ariya status even if I knew him/her personally, let alone in this forum (except of course, when some people make such claims and when people start asking question go into a raging madness) . So, I'll keep quiet. :coffee:

Sorry if I'm repeating myself, but I can't begin to express how awe-inspiring it is for me to be in this forum. Thank you, all you noble people!! :anjali:

Metta,
Dhammabodhi

P.S: Sorry for my little rant there. :)
"Take rest, take rest."-S.N.Goenka
PeterB
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by PeterB »

Not at all a rant Dhammabodhi.. :anjali:
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Dan74
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by Dan74 »

Dhammabodhi wrote:Thank you, all you noble people!! :anjali:

Metta,
Dhammabodhi
You are welcome! :sage:

Now if you start questioning me, I may go into a raging madness, but it'll be a noble raging madness.

:buddha1:
_/|\_
Reductor
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by Reductor »

Freawaru wrote: I think there would be only one reason for an aryan to claim "aryanship": if it would increase the effort of people. If the reaction would be: if THAT person can reach sotapanna it can't be so hard, I can do it, too. If you ask me too many practitioners block themselves by considering themselves not able enough.

But I doubt this would be the reaction. I recall Ven. Nanavira Thera's experience with it: everybody placing him on some kind of pedestal ! :shrug:
This is more in line with what I was thinking; that a genuine claim could be a great help/inducement in the practice of others. As for what the sotapanna would gain, that would be markedly less, for what gain could be better than the stream?

Of course, I don't think it likely that anyone would be raised up on a pedestal, unless done by those that know them in the flesh. Online I think the reaction would be decidedly more hostile.

But, I thank everyone who has thus far participated in this thread. I think this is my last post in this thread though.

Oh, PeterB - I didn't think that you were making a personal slight against me, or anyone else. All is good.
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DNS
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by DNS »

Chula wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:Even anagamis have ... some sense desires.
A little off-topic, but wanted to make a small correction: anāgāmī's do no have any sense desire - just desire for form (rūparāga) and desire for the formless (arūparāga).
:oops: Yes, thank you.

I meant saka-dagamis have greatly weakened the cravings for sense desires and anagamis and Arahants have eradicated sense desires completely.

What has been debated here is sotapanna level, how much higher is even a saka-dagami or anagami and both still have conceit.
Mukunda
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by Mukunda »

retrofuturist wrote:One element you may not have considered in the above is that such questioning is also for the benefit of the potential stream-entrant in the sense that they might be deluded about their attainment, and may falsely believe themselves to be a stream-entrant when in fact they're not. Indeed, looking at some of the aspects of what constitutes stream-entry, such as that in those compendiums I provided links to, it would be quite easy to interpret these in such a way that one believed they indeed were a stream-entrant. Again, differences in the Sutta, Abhidhamma and Commentarial perspectives only go to confuse things further.
This is precisely why one should make every effort to work with a fully qualified teacher and not assume they can do it all by them self using books and on line forums.
Zhalmed Pawo
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by Zhalmed Pawo »

Wind wrote:This might not add to the discussion but I personally prefer the term "stream-enterer" rather than "stream-winner". The word "winner" puts too much emphases on a prize of some sorts while "enterer" place more emphasis on accomplishing an important step on the path.
Hmmm... When people speak about "stream-enterers" or "stream-winners", do they usually mean one thing or two? I mean, there are two types of "stream-persons" mentioned in the Suttas - those who have attained the path of stream-entry, and those who have attained the fruit of stream-entry. Both types are Aryans. I find it very difficult to understand what people, or the Suttas, mean exactly, as nobody seems to keep these two Aryan types separate, and in many Suttas they are also 'merged together'.

So, when has someone entered the path, and when has someone attained the fruit, of stream-entry? Is there any easy clear-cut answer to this? :reading:
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Annapurna
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by Annapurna »

I don't think there are clear borders, because when this arises, that arises.

When stream entry happens, fruit is not far, or immediately there, if you think about it, in form of greater calm and happiness through clarity.

At least that is what comes to my mind. What arises in my mind.

With metta,

Annapurna
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