The rupa in nama-rupa

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The rupa in nama-rupa

Postby retrofuturist » Wed May 05, 2010 6:41 am

Greetings,

Does the rupa in nama-rupa refer to this objectively defined biological body or to the personal experience of the properties of earth, liquid, fire and wind?

Extract from MN 140 - Dhatu-vibhanga Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"And what is the earth property? The earth property can be either internal or external. What is the internal earth property? Anything internal, within oneself, that's hard, solid, & sustained [by craving]: head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, membranes, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, contents of the stomach, feces, or anything else internal, within oneself, that's hard, solid, and sustained: This is called the internal earth property. Now both the internal earth property & the external earth property are simply earth property. And that should be seen as it actually is present with right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self.' When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the earth property and makes the earth property fade from the mind.

"And what is the liquid property? The liquid property may be either internal or external. What is the internal liquid property? Anything internal, belonging to oneself, that's liquid, watery, & sustained: bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, oil, saliva, mucus, oil-of-the-joints, urine, or anything else internal, within oneself, that's liquid, watery, & sustained: This is called the internal liquid property. Now both the internal liquid property & the external liquid property are simply liquid property. And that should be seen as it actually is present with right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self.' When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the liquid property and makes the liquid property fade from the mind.

"And what is the fire property? The fire property may be either internal or external. What is the internal fire property? Anything internal, belonging to oneself, that's fire, fiery, & sustained: that by which [the body] is warmed, aged, & consumed with fever; and that by which what is eaten, drunk, consumed & tasted gets properly digested; or anything else internal, within oneself, that's fire, fiery, & sustained: This is called the internal fire property. Now both the internal fire property & the external fire property are simply fire property. And that should be seen as it actually is present with right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self.' When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the fire property and makes the fire property fade from the mind.

"And what is the wind property? The wind property may be either internal or external. What is the internal wind property? Anything internal, belonging to oneself, that's wind, windy, & sustained: up-going winds, down-going winds, winds in the stomach, winds in the intestines, winds that course through the body, in-and-out breathing, or anything else internal, within oneself, that's wind, windy, & sustained: This is called the internal wind property. Now both the internal wind property & the external wind property are simply wind property. And that should be seen as it actually is present with right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self.' When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the wind property and makes the wind property fade from the mind.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: The rupa in nama-rupa

Postby Ben » Wed May 05, 2010 7:26 am

Hi Retro

I'll be the first to stick my neck out...

A couple of disjointed thoughts:
To me, in the sutta quoted above, the Buddha seems to be refering to the objective reality of rupa. That's just my reading of it, in isolation from the rest of the sutta and from the commentarial literature that may throw some additional light on the subject.
It appears that the assumption within your question is that the objective reality and one's experience of reality are two mutually exclusive "things".
If that is the case, then it begs the discussion on what we can really know, and how we think we come to know it.
Perhaps a discussion for another thread unless it is what you are driving at.
kind regards

Ben
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Re: The rupa in nama-rupa

Postby cooran » Wed May 05, 2010 7:30 am

Hello Retrofuturist, all,

This might be of assistance, and includes several other Sutta and Vis. M. references:

nāma-rūpa
(lit. 'name and form'): 'mind-and-body', mentality and corporeality. It is the 4th link in the dependent origination (s. paticcasamuppāda 3, 4) where it is conditioned by consciousness, and on its part is the condition of the sixfold sense-base. In two texts (D. 14, 15), which contain variations of the dependent origination, the mutual conditioning of consciousness and mind-and-body is described (see also S. XII, 67), and the latter is said to be a condition of sense-impression (phassa); so also in Sn. 872.

The third of the seven purifications (s. visuddhi), the purification of views, is defined in Vis.M. XVIII as the "correct seeing of mind-and-body," and various methods for the discernment of mind-and-body by way of insight-meditation (vipassanā, q.v.) are given there. In this context, 'mind' (nāma) comprises all four mental groups, including consciousness. - See nāma.

In five-group-existence (pañca-vokāra-bhava, q.v.), mind-and body are inseparable and interdependent; and this has been illustrated by comparing them with two sheaves of reeds propped against each other: when one falls the other will fall, too; and with a blind man with stout legs, carrying on his shoulders a lame cripple with keen eye-sight: only by mutual assistance can they move about efficiently (s. Vis.M. XVIII, 32ff). On their mutual dependence, see also paticca-samuppāda (3).

With regard to the impersonality and dependent nature of mind and corporeality it is said:
"Sound is not a thing that dwells inside the conch-shell and comes out from time to time, but due to both, the conch-shell and the man that blows it, sound comes to arise: Just so, due to the presence of vitality, heat and consciousness, this body may execute the acts of going, standing, sitting and lying down, and the 5 sense-organs and the mind may perform their various functions" (D. 23).
"Just as a wooden puppet though unsubstantial, lifeless and inactive may by means of pulling strings be made to move about, stand up, and appear full of life and activity; just so are mind and body, as such, something empty, lifeless and inactive; but by means of their mutual working together, this mental and bodily combination may move about, stand up, and appear full of life and activity."
http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_ ... _ruupa.htm

with metta
Chris
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Re: The rupa in nama-rupa

Postby retrofuturist » Wed May 05, 2010 8:15 am

Greetings Ben,

Ben wrote:To me, in the sutta quoted above, the Buddha seems to be refering to the objective reality of rupa.


How then would you interpret the end of each section, specifically the italicised part.

"When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the wind property and makes the wind property fade from the mind."

Ben wrote:It appears that the assumption within your question is that the objective reality and one's experience of reality are two mutually exclusive "things".


Moreso perhaps two different angles by which to look at the situation, and it's more about identifying which angle is the one intended than them being mutually exclusive per se.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: The rupa in nama-rupa

Postby retrofuturist » Wed May 05, 2010 8:20 am

Greetings Cooran,

Thank you (as always) for the definitions.

They seem to be leaning towards the "this objectively defined biological body" direction more than "the personal experience of the properties of earth, liquid, fire and wind" direction.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: The rupa in nama-rupa

Postby Ben » Wed May 05, 2010 8:26 am

Hi Retro

That's interesting.
I've checked Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, and this is how he translates that sentence:

When one sees it thus as it actually is with proper wisdom, one becomes disenchanted with the earth element and makes the mind dispassionate towards the earth element

So it appears we are to develop dispassion towards those things that are earth element manifest by developing 'proper wisdom'.
kind regards

Ben
"Only those who take to meditation with good intentions can be assured of success. With the development of the purity and the power of the mind backed by the insight into the ultimate truth of nature, one might be able to do a lot of things in the right direction for the benefit of mankind."

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Re: The rupa in nama-rupa

Postby Zom » Wed May 05, 2010 8:28 am

"'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. If consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would name-and-form take shape in the womb?"

"No, lord."

"If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart, would name-and-form be produced for this world?"

"No, lord."

"If the consciousness of the young boy or girl were to be cut off, would name-and-form ripen, grow, and reach maturity?"

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for name-and-form, i.e., consciousness."


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

More:

"Sustained by/clinging to the six properties, there is an alighting of an embryo. There being an alighting, there is name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. To one experiencing feeling I declare, 'This is stress.' I declare, 'This is the origination of stress.' I declare, 'This is the cessation of stress.' I declare, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Re: The rupa in nama-rupa

Postby retrofuturist » Wed May 05, 2010 9:12 am

Greetings Ben,

Ben wrote:I've checked Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, and this is how he translates that sentence:

When one sees it thus as it actually is with proper wisdom, one becomes disenchanted with the earth element and makes the mind dispassionate towards the earth element


Interesting how the different translations have different emphasis, isn't it?

Reading from Bodhi's translation for the rest of this post...

"What is the internal earth element? Whatever internally, belonging to oneself, is solid, solidified and clung-to"

That bolded bit is interesting.

Both translations seem reasonable consistent in the "Now both the internal earth element and the external earth element are simply earth element"

The question now seems to be whether these considerations (e.g. 'clung to', internal and external) are applicable to rupa or not?

Apologies for the slightly sporadic nature of some of these posts - it's a busy evening.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: The rupa in nama-rupa

Postby retrofuturist » Wed May 05, 2010 9:27 am

Greetings,

Something else to throw into the mix...

Consciousness without feature,
without end,
luminous all around:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness
each is here brought to an end.


From DN 11: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: The rupa in nama-rupa

Postby retrofuturist » Wed May 05, 2010 9:30 am

Greetings,

Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the "stock phrases" quoted in my opening post are also found here...

MN 28: Mahahatthipadopama Sutta
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... _Sutta.htm

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: The rupa in nama-rupa

Postby Ben » Wed May 05, 2010 9:34 am

Busy evening here too, Retro. No problem!

The sutta seems to be instruction for a meditation on the elements, and the Buddha is going through each of the elements in turn instucting his disciples to develop vipassana in relation to each of the elements. However the elements manifest themselves as blood, sweat or tears, they are not-self, impermanent and a source of dukkha when clung to.
Similar to the Satipatthana when one reviews the components of the body. When we observe these objects as they really are, we become released from personality view and perceiving these things as me and mine, an abode for the atman.
kind regards

Ben
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Re: The rupa in nama-rupa

Postby Shonin » Wed May 05, 2010 9:42 am

Most philosophers focus on ontology (what is) and epistemology (how we know stuff) as well as ethics (what we should do).

One thing that strikes me about the Buddha is that he almost never makes ontological statements ('this is how things are irrespective of our experience of them'). Nor does he spend much time speculating about metaphysics (karma and rebirth being exceptions I think). What he focuses on is what can be discovered or experienced. In modern parlance that would make him a kind of pragmatic empiricist. He focuses on phenomena (appearances, experiences) not on abstract notions of objective 'things in themselves'.

This being so, the rupa in nama-rupa seems likely to refer to both the biological body AND the personal experience of the properties of earth, liquid, fire and wind, as they are not in actual experience two separate things. The body is an agglomeration of the elements and it is the means through which we experience them. We don't find an objectively existing body outside of our sensory experiences of the body.
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Re: The rupa in nama-rupa

Postby retrofuturist » Wed May 05, 2010 9:46 am

Greetings,

From the PTS Dictionary...

Rūpa

Rūpa (nt.) [cp. Vedic rūpa, connected etymologically with varpa (Grassmann). -- The nom. pl. is rūpā & rūpāni] form, figure, appearance, principle of form, etc. -- A. Definitions. According to P. expositors rūpa takes its designation fr. ruppati, e. g. "ruppanato rūpaŋ" Vism 588; "ruppan' aṭṭhena r." VbhA 3; "rūpa -- rūpaŋ= ruppana sabhāvena yuttaŋ" Cpd. 1567 (where ruppati is, not quite correctly, given as "change"), "ruppatī ti: tasmā rūpan ti vuccati" S iii.86; other defns are "rūpayatī ti rūpaŋ" (with cakkhu & the other 10 āyatanas) VbhA 45; and more scientifically: "paresu rūp' ādisu cakkhu -- paṭihanana lakkhaṇaŋ rūpaŋ" Vism 446. -- Of modern interpretations & discussions see e. g. Dhs. trsl. introd. ch. vi. (pp. 41 -- 63, or 248 -- 71); Dial. ii.244; Expos. 67n; Cpd. 270 sq. (where objections are raised to trsln "form," and as better (philosophical) terms "matter," "material quality" are recommended). See also loka for similar etym. -- B. (lit.) appearance, form, figure Dhs 597 sq. (=form either contrasted with what is unseen, or taken for both seen and unseen), 751; Mhvs 27, 30 (sīha -- vyagghādirūpāni representations of lions, tigers etc.); 30, 68 (ravicanda -- tāra -- rūpāni id.); 36, 31 (loha˚ bronze statue); ThA 257. -- Esp. beautiful form, beauty S iv.275= Pv ii.958 (as one of the 10 attributes, with sadda etc., of distinction: see also below D ii.a); Miln 285; Mhvs 20, 4 (rūpa -- māninī proud of her beauty); PvA 89. -- surūpa very beautiful ThA 72; durūpa of evil form, ugly A ii.203 sq. (dubbaṇṇa+). -- In phrase rūpaŋ sikkhati Vin i.77=iv.129 the meaning is doubtful; it may be "to study drawing, or arts & craft," or (with Mrs. Rh. D.) "weights & measures," or (w. Hardy) "money changing." It is said that through this occupation the eyes become bad; it is opposed to gaṇanā. -- C. ( -- ˚) of such & such a form, like, kind, of a certain condition or appearance. In this appln very frequent & similar to E. -- hood, or Ger. -- heit, i. e. an abstract formation. Often untranslatable because of the latter character. It is similar to kāya (cp. expln of ātura<-> rūpa Vv 8314 by abhitunna -- kāya Vva 328), but not so much with ref. to life & feeling as to appearance and looks. E. g. aneka˚ Sn 1079 (=anekavidha Nd2 54); adissamāna˚ invisible PvA 6 (lit. with invisible form); ummatta˚ as if mad, under the appearance of madness, like a madman Pv i.81; ii.63; eva˚ in such a condition Pv ii.15; tapassī˚ appearing to be an ascetic Pv i.32; tāraka˚ the (shapes of the) stars Dhs 617; deva˚ as a deva PvA 92. Pleonastically e. g. in: anupatta˚ attaining Pv iv.166; taramāna˚ quickly Pv ii.62; yutta˚ fit PvA 157; sucitta˚ variegated Pv i.109. -- Cases ad verbially: citta -- rūpaŋ according to intention Vin iii.161; iv.177; cetabba -- rūpaŋ fit to be thought upon J iv.157. (=˚yuttakaŋ C.). -- atta -- rūpena on my own account S iv.97; godha -- rūpena as an iguana Mhvs 28, 9. -- D. (as philos. t. t.) principle of (material) form, materiality, visibility. -- There are var. groups of psychological and metaphysical systematizations, in which rūpa functions as the material, gross factor, by the side of other, more subtle factors. In all these representations of rūpa we find that an element of moral psychology overshadows the purely philosophical & speculative aspect. A detailed (Abhidhammatic) discussion of rūpa in var. aspects is to be found at Dhs § 585 -- 980. <-> 1. rūpa as āyatana or sense object. It is the object of the activity or sphere of the organ of sight (cakkhu). As such it heads the list of the 6 bāhirāni āyatanāni (see e. g. Nd2 p. 238 A -- E & āyatana3) with "cakkhunā rūpaŋ disvā" (the others: sota>sadda, ghāna>gandha, jivhā>rasa, kāya>phoṭṭhabba, mano>dhamma), cp. cakkhu -- viññeyyā rūpā iṭṭhā kantā etc. D i.245; M i.266; cakkhunā rūpaŋ passati iṭṭha -- rūpaŋ kanta -- rūpaŋ etc. S iv.126; -- see further: Vin i.34 (sabbaŋ ādittaŋ: cakkhuŋ ādittaŋ, rūpa ādittā etc. with sequence of other āyatanas); D ii.308 sq., 336 sq.; M iii.18 (yaŋ kho rūpaŋ paṭicca uppajjati sukhaŋ somanassaŋ, ayaŋ rūpe assādo; cp. Ps ii.109 sq.), 291 (ye te cakkhu -- viññeyyesu rūpesu avīta -- rāgā etc.); Ps i.79; ii.38 (rūpī rūpāni passatī ti vimokkho); Dhs 617, 653, 878; Tikp 28. <-> 2. (metaphysically) as the representative of sensory or material existence: (a) universally as forming the corporeal stratum in the world of appearance or form (rūpa-bhava) as compared with the incorporeal (arūpa -- bhava), being itself above, and yet including the kāma -- bhava. (The kāmabhava is a subdivision of rūpabhava, which has got raised into a third main division.) This triad is also found in combns with loka or dhātu (see dhātu 2 a & d), or avacara. See e. g. D i.17; iii.215 (˚dhātu), 216 (˚bhava); Kvu 370 sq. (˚dhātu); Dhs 499 (˚âvacara), 585 (˚dhātu); Vbh 17 (˚āvacara), 25 (as garu -- pariṇāma & dandha -- nirodha compd with arūpa). A similar sequence rūpa arūpa & nirodha (i. e. nibbāna) in old verses at Sn 755; It 45, 62 (rūpehi arūpā santatarā, arūpehi nirodho santataro). On indriya -- rūpa "faculty as form" see indriya B. -- (b) individually in the sphere of saŋsāra as one (i. e. the material quality) of the substrata of sensory individual existence or the khandhas. They are the 5: rūpa -- kkhandha, vedanā˚, saññā˚, sankhārā˚, viññāṇa˚; otherwise called rūp' ûpādāna -- kkhandha etc. (e. g. D iii.223, 278; Vism 443). See khandha ii. B. -- In this property rūpa consists of 28 subdivisions, viz. the 4 (great) dhātūs (mahābhūtāni or else bhūta -- rūpa primary matter) and 24 upādārūpāni (i. e. derivative forms or accidentals). These are given in extenso in the rūpakkhandha section of the Vism (pp. 443 -- 450), also at Dhs 585; the 24 consist of: cakkhu, sota, ghāna, jivhā, kāya, rūpa, sadda, gandha, rasa, itthindriya, purisindriya, jīvitindriya, hadayavatthu, kāya -- viññatti, vacī -- viññatti, ākāsa -- dhātu, (rūpassa) lahutā mudutā kammaññatā, upacaya santati jaratā aniccatā, kabaḷinkār' -- āhāra; cp. defn at Nett 73: cātu -- mahābhūtikaŋ rūpaŋ catunnaŋ ca mahābhūtānaŋ upādāya rūpassa paññatti. The rūpakkhandha shares with the others the qualities of soullessness, evanescence and ill (anattā, anicca, dukkha); e. g. rūpañ ca h' idaŋ attā abhavissa, na y' idaŋ rūpaŋ ābadhāya saŋvatteyya Vin i.13, cp. similarly M iii.282 sq.; S iii.66; quoted and expld in detail at Vism 610; rūpaŋ aniccaŋ Vin i.14; M i.228; iii.18 (also expld at Vism 610); S iii.48, 66, 88; rūpe anicc' ânupassanā Ps ii.186 sq. -- See also D ii.301; iii.233; Ps i.23, 53, 104; ii.96, 102, 109 (rūpassa ādīnavo); Vbh 1. sq., 12 sq. (in detail); Kvu 11 sq.; Vism 443 sq.; Tikp 33; VbhA 2, 3, 32 sq.=S iii.142 (with var. similes); DhA iv.100. -- (c) in the making up of the individuality as such (nāma -- rūpa), where in contrast with nāma (as abstract, logical, invisible or mind -- factor) rūpa represents the visible (material) factor, resembling kāya (cp. phrase nāma -- kāya in same sense). The foll. are current defns of nāma -- rūpa: nāma -- (kāya)=vedanā, saññā, cetanā, phassa, manasikāra (otherwise citta -- sankhārā), rūpa( -- kāya)=cattāro mahā -- bhūtā catunnaŋ m -- bhūtānaŋ upādāya rūpaŋ (otherwise kāya -- sankhārā) S ii.4; iii.59 sq.; Ps i.183; with explns at Vism 558 & VbhA 169. Defined at Nett 15: "ye phassa -- pañcamakā dhammā: idaŋ nāmaŋ, yāni pañc' indriyāni rūpāni: idaŋ rūpaŋ, tad ubhayaŋ nāmarūpaŋ viññāṇa -- sampayuttaŋ." Discussed in detail also at Vism 562 (=VbhA 173, 174), 587 -- 597; cp. DhsA 392 (Expos. 500, where "mind -- matter" is given as corresp. couple in trsln, do. Cpd. 271 sq. "mind and body"). See also under paṭicca -- samuppāda. -- 3. various references: D iii.102, 212, 225, 244, 273; M i.84 (Gotamo kāmānaŋ pariññaŋ paññāpeti, rūpānaŋ, vedanānaŋ); S ii.198; iii.11 (evaŋ -- rūpo siyaŋ, evaŋ vedano etc.), 101 (id., & the khandhas); Sn 867, 874, 943, 1037, 1121; Nd1 425; Tikp 36, 38, 54, 262; Vism 625 (uppajjanaka˚).
-- ārammaṇa a visible thing as object Dhs 146, 365; DhsA 310 (cp. Expos. 407). -- âvacara world of form, sphere of matter (cp. Expos. 67, 216n, 264) PvA 163. -- ûpaga (satta) (a being) living in (bodily) form It 62; Sn 754. -- ūpajīvinī f. a woman living on her beauty, i. e. a harlot PvA 46, 201. -- ññu knowing (var.) bodily forms M i.220=A v.347. -- taṇhā craving after form D ii.309; iii.216, 244, 280; VbhA 179 (in det.). -- dakkha one clever in forms, viz. an artist (accountant?) Miln 344 (in the Dhamma -- nagara). -- dhātu the element of form, material element Vism 486; Nett 32, 97. See above D 2. -- nimitta sign of form Ps i.92. -- patta beautiful J i.61. -- pamāṇika measuring by form (outward appearance), one of the 4 kinds of measurements which the world takes of the Tathāgata (see A ii.71 & Pug 53), viz. rūpa˚, ghosa˚, lūkha˚, dhamma˚ DhA iii.113; the same four similarly at SnA 242. -- pātubhāva appearance of form (also as ˚antara˚ intermediate form) SnA 245. -- bhava material existence: see above D 2. -- rāga lust after rebirth in rūpa D iii.234 (+arūpa˚); Nett 28 (pañc' indriyāni rūpīni rūpa -- rāgassa padaṭṭhānaŋ. -- rūpa material form (mutable material quality?) Cpd. 156, doubtful trsln & expln -- saññā perception of material qualities, notion of form D i.34; ii.112 (expld in det. at Vism 328); iii.224, 244, 253; Nd2 545; DhsA 200 (cp. Expos. 269). -- saññin perceiving form D iii.260; Ps ii.38; Sn 1113. -- santati duration of material form Vism 431; VbhA 21. -- samussaya accumulation of form, complex form ThA 98. -- samāpatti attainment of beauty J i.406. -- sampatti beauty J iii.187. -- siri personal splendour J i.60.


Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: The rupa in nama-rupa

Postby retrofuturist » Wed May 05, 2010 9:51 am

Greetings Shonin,

Shonin wrote:This being so, the rupa in nama-rupa seems likely to refer to both the biological body AND the personal experience of the properties of earth, liquid, fire and wind, as they are not in actual experience two separate things. The body is an agglomeration of the elements and it is the means through which we experience them. We don't find an objectively existing body outside of our sensory experiences of the body.


Makes sense to me.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: The rupa in nama-rupa

Postby PeterB » Wed May 05, 2010 9:57 am

Makes sense to me too.
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Re: The rupa in nama-rupa

Postby tiltbillings » Wed May 05, 2010 11:04 am

Shonin wrote:We don't find an objectively existing body outside of our sensory experiences of the body.

Geez, you sound like a Yogacharin or a Theravadin.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
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Re: The rupa in nama-rupa

Postby retrofuturist » Wed May 05, 2010 11:13 am

Greetings,

It seems quite clear that dispassion is key, but is it dispassion for...

- this objectively defined biological body
- the personal experience of the properties of earth, liquid, fire and wind?

... and does the dispassion come about through...

- observation of its anicca characteristic
- observation of its anatta characteristic (in the sense of separating the individual elements from the overall body)
- observation of its dukkha characteristic

Or any or all of the above?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: The rupa in nama-rupa

Postby Shonin » Wed May 05, 2010 11:27 am

My take:

retrofuturist wrote:It seems quite clear that dispassion is key, but is it dispassion for...

- this objectively defined biological body
- the personal experience of the properties of earth, liquid, fire and wind?


The objectively defined biological body is an idea, an object of the mind, which is classified by the Buddha as one of the senses. Dispassion is for both the idea of the objective body AND the elements (including the body) experienced through the other senses.

retrofuturist wrote:... and does the dispassion come about through...

- observation of its anicca characteristic
- observation of its anatta characteristic (in the sense of separating the individual elements from the overall body)
- observation of its dukkha characteristic


All three, which are interlinked. Rupa is impermanent and thus unsatisfactory and thus not Self.
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Re: The rupa in nama-rupa

Postby acinteyyo » Wed May 05, 2010 4:26 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Does the rupa in nama-rupa refer to this objectively defined biological body or to the personal experience of the properties of earth, liquid, fire and wind?

Hi retro, all,
as I see it, rupa actually is earth, liquid, fire and wind and everything which arises from them (e.g. "this objectively defined biological body" although this probably also contains nama already).
It says in the Sammaditthi Sutta:
MN9 wrote:The four great elements (maha-bhuta) and the material form derived from the four great elements — these are called rupa.

What do you mean by "experience of the properties of earth, liquid, fire and wind"?
Because any experience consists of nama-rupa (nama and rupa).
See also Ven. Ñanavira Thera's shorter Note on nama:
In any experience (leaving out of account arūpa) there is a phenomenon that is present (i.e. that is cognized). The presence, or cognition, or consciousness, of the phenomenon is viññāna. The phenomenon has two characteristics, inertia and designation (patigha and adhivacana). The inertia of a phenomenon is rūpa ('matter' or 'substance'), which may be seen also as its behaviour; and this presents itself only in the passage of time (however short). (These four mahābhūtā are the general modes of behaviour or matter: earthy, or persistent and resistant, or solid; watery, or cohesive; fiery, or ripening, or maturing; airy, or tense, or distended, or moving.) The designation of a phenomenon is nāma ('name'), which may be seen also as its appearance (the form or guise adopted by the behaviour, as distinct from the behaviour itself). Nāma consists of the following: whether (the experience is) pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral (vedanā or 'feeling'); shape, colour, smell, and so on (saññā or 'perception [percepts]'); significance or purpose (cetanā or 'intention[s]'); engagement in experience (phassa or 'contact'); and (intentional) direction of emphasis (manasikāra or 'attention').


best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.

:anjali:
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Re: The rupa in nama-rupa

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Wed May 05, 2010 5:10 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

It seems quite clear that dispassion is key, but is it dispassion for...

- this objectively defined biological body
- the personal experience of the properties of earth, liquid, fire and wind?

... and does the dispassion come about through...

- observation of its anicca characteristic
- observation of its anatta characteristic (in the sense of separating the individual elements from the overall body)
- observation of its dukkha characteristic

Or any or all of the above?

Metta,
Retro. :)


Geez Paul, this is a deep question. It made my head swim. I'll have to think n this for a long time.

J
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