Proximate causes of the Brahma-vViharas

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Re: Proximate causes of the Brahma-vViharas

Postby retrofuturist » Thu May 06, 2010 11:53 am

Greetings Mike,

I don't deny that, but does the Buddha say that as a proximate cause for developing equanimity?

Two unconnected things have been twisted together by Buddhaghosa. I wonder if he understood equanimity beyond what he read and thought about it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Proximate causes of the Brahma-vViharas

Postby mikenz66 » Thu May 06, 2010 11:54 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:What are you referring to as "Buddhaghosa's method"?


Everything quoted from him to date in this topic, including what you just posted, is about how the practitioner feels about and regards other beings (and their kammic fate).

But Buddhaghosa didn't mention kamma at all in the passage I quoted. The "beings are heirs to their kamma" is from the Suttas. Buddhaghosa, as far as I understood, talked about not having any preference out of oneself, someone one likes, hates, or is neutral about.

Edit: He does mention it later. IX96...

Mike
Last edited by mikenz66 on Thu May 06, 2010 12:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Proximate causes of the Brahma-vViharas

Postby retrofuturist » Thu May 06, 2010 11:56 am

Greetings Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:But Buddhaghosa didn't mention kamma at all.

Buddhaghosa wrote:Equanimity is characterized as promoting the aspect of neutrality towards beings. its function is to see equality in beings. It is manifested as the quieting of resentment and approval. its proximate cause is seeing ownership of deeds (kamma) thus: "Beings are owners of their deeds. Whose (if not theirs) is the choice by which they will become happy, or will get free from suffering, or will not fall away from the success they have reached?"

- Visuddhimagga, (lX, 96)

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Proximate causes of the Brahma-vViharas

Postby PeterB » Thu May 06, 2010 12:01 pm

appicchato wrote:
PeterB wrote:...that in fact none of the BV's stand alone. None are ends in themselves. Metta without Upekkha can become a sentimental over identification with the other. Upekkha without Metta can lapse into indifference. And so on.

How do you see the issue Ven Appicchato ?


Well...I see (each of) the BV's quite able to stand alone...that they can (quite handily) be ends in themselves...metta is metta, with, or without, upekkha, and may, or may not, become a sentimental oversimplification with the other...and that upekkha, without metta, may, or may not, lapse into indifference...and so on...

Thank you Bhante...its food for thought.
On the surface that appears quite different to what i was taught. That could be for a number of reasons of course. WhatI I was taught could be wrong. ( I see no point in personalising the matter by going into by whom I was taught it ).Or I could have misunderstood what I was taught.
As I say..food for thought.
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Re: Proximate causes of the Brahma-vViharas

Postby mikenz66 » Thu May 06, 2010 12:11 pm

Hi Retro,
Mike
retrofuturist wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:But Buddhaghosa didn't mention kamma at all.

Buddhaghosa wrote:Equanimity is characterized as promoting the aspect of neutrality towards beings. its function is to see equality in beings. It is manifested as the quieting of resentment and approval. its proximate cause is seeing ownership of deeds (kamma) thus: "Beings are owners of their deeds. Whose (if not theirs) is the choice by which they will become happy, or will get free from suffering, or will not fall away from the success they have reached?"

- Visuddhimagga, (lX, 96)
Yes, I missed that later quote, I was looking at his discussion of the development of concentration.

There may be two issues here:
1. What equanimity means.
2. Methods of development.

Perhaps we should be clear about what it means. Do you disagree with any of the definitions that have been quoted?

Mike
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Re: Proximate causes of the Brahma-vViharas

Postby appicchato » Thu May 06, 2010 12:43 pm

PeterB wrote:WhatI I was taught could be wrong.

Maybe, maybe not...but that's the deal...would/could/should...just because I spout something doesn't mean anything...it's your (our) practice to reflect, consider, and contemplate every little thing...and while perhaps considering my take, in the end making your own decisions on the validity of what you (or I) espouse would seem to be the best way to formulate a doctrine to live by...
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