Contact, Suffering, Cessation Qs?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: Contact, Suffering, Cessation Qs?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue May 18, 2010 10:11 am

Greetings Mike,

I appreciate the suggestion, but I think the original statement was rather clear. If people don't understand the distinction, they're free to ask.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14622
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Contact, Suffering, Cessation Qs?

Postby Pannapetar » Tue May 18, 2010 10:12 am

Dmytro wrote:Avijja" in the Conditioned Arising (paticca-samuppada) refers to the previous lifetime.

PeterB wrote:Or not. See Buddhadasa.


Question is: is this really such an important distinction? I can see how it can be interpreted both ways. Perhaps the "lifetime" perspective is just one frame of reference, as valid as any other frame of reference.

Cheers, Thomas
User avatar
Pannapetar
 
Posts: 327
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:05 am
Location: Chiang Mai, Thailand

Re: Contact, Suffering, Cessation Qs?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue May 18, 2010 10:17 am

Greetings Pannapetar,

Pannapetar wrote:Question is: is this really such an important distinction? I can see how it can be interpreted both ways. Perhaps the "lifetime" perspective is just one frame of reference, as valid as any other frame of reference.


Trying to stick within the context of the discussion in hand, cessation of contact (phassanirodha) would not be possible in a particular lifetime if there had been avijja in the previous lifetime, let alone earlier in this lifetime (under the three-lifetime model)

The question then is, "Do arahants attain phassanirodha or do only dead people achieve phassanirodha?"

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."

Āyasmā Sāriputto etad avoca. Sukham idam āvuso nibbānam, sukham idam āvuso nibbānan ti. Evam vutte āyasmā Udāyi āyasmantam Sāriputtam etad avoca. Kim pan'ettha āvuso Sāriputta sukham, yad ettha n'atthi vedayitan ti. Etad eva khv ettha āvuso sukham, yad ettha n'atthi vedayitam.
Anguttara IX,iv,3 <A.iv,414>

The venerable Sāriputta said this:—It is extinction, friends, that is pleasant! It is extinction, friends, that is pleasant! When this was said, the venerable Udāyi said to the venerable Sāriputta,—But what herein is pleasant, friend Sāriputta, since herein there is nothing felt?—Just this is pleasant, friend, that herein there is nothing felt.

Sariputta is cool. 8-)

Nanavira Thera wrote:The problem lies in the present, which is always with us; and any attempt to consider past or future without first settling the present problem can only beg the question—'self' is either asserted or denied, or both, or both assertion and denial are denied, all of which take it for granted


Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14622
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Contact, Suffering, Cessation Qs?

Postby adosa » Tue May 18, 2010 10:27 am

Dmytro wrote:Hi Adosa,

adosa wrote:Contact arises when the sense base (i.e. eye), form, and eye-consciousness meet. From contact, suffering arises.


That's wrong.

Suffering arises with a contact as a necessary condition (paccaya). The relationship of conditioned arising (paticca-samuppada) doesn't mean that the links happen simultaneously.

So the contact, being distanced from suffering by several links: http://dhamma.ru/lib/paticcas.htm , may happen years before the resulting suffering. Or it may not lead to suffering at all, being just a necessary condition.



Metta, Dmytro



Thanks Dmtryo.... but from contact suffering arises. Without contact, no suffering. Contact is the necessary condition for suffering to arises. I see where you're coming from but the statement is still true.

"The Blessed One, my friend, has said that pleasure & pain are dependently co-arisen. Dependent on what? Dependent on contact. One speaking in this way would be speaking in line with what the Blessed One has said, would not be misrepresenting the Blessed One with what is unfactual, and would be answering in line with the Dhamma so that no one whose thinking is in line with the Dhamma would have grounds for criticism.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

adosa :smile:
Last edited by adosa on Tue May 18, 2010 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
"To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas" - Dhammapada 183
User avatar
adosa
 
Posts: 263
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: Contact, Suffering, Cessation Qs?

Postby Pannapetar » Tue May 18, 2010 10:38 am

retrofuturist wrote:The question then is, "Do arahants attain phassanirodha or do only dead people achieve phassanirodha?"


I'd be interested to know how phassanirodha is possible with a functioning body. Perhaps using a sensory deprivation chamber? But even in a sensory deprivation chamber, there is still mental contact. So, I don't think it is possible.

Cheers, Thomas
Last edited by Pannapetar on Tue May 18, 2010 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Pannapetar
 
Posts: 327
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:05 am
Location: Chiang Mai, Thailand

Re: Contact, Suffering, Cessation Qs?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue May 18, 2010 10:40 am

Greetings Pannapetar,

[Post repeated for Pannapetar's benefit... sometimes posts get lost on longer topics]

Extract from Kalahavivada Sutta
http://buddhasutra.com/files/kalahavivada_sutta.htm

"What is the source of sense-impression? From what arises so much grasping? By the absence of what is there no selfish attachment? By the disappearance of what is sense-impression not experienced?"

"Sense-impression is dependent upon the mental and the material. Grasping has its source in wanting something. What not being present there is no selfish attachment. By the disappearance of material objects sense-impression is not experienced."

"For whom does materiality disappear? How do pleasure and discomfort cease to be? Tell me how it ceases so that I may be satisfied in my mind that I have understood it."

"His perception is not the ordinary kind, nor is his perception abnormal; he is not without perception nor is his perception (of materiality) suspended. -- to such an one immateriality ceases. Perception is indeed the source of the world of multiplicity."

Note, he is not dead. He is an arahant.

The Buddha is cool. 8-)

How to resolve these suttas about the cessation of phassa, with the three-life-interpretation of the Mahavihara? Let us ask the Blessed one...

DN 16: Mahaparinibbana Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .vaji.html

The Blessed One wrote:Then the Blessed One said: "In this fashion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might speak: 'Face to face with the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a community with elders and a chief. Face to face with that community, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name live several bhikkhus who are elders, who are learned, who have accomplished their course, who are preservers of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with those elders, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a single bhikkhu who is an elder, who is learned, who has accomplished his course, who is a preserver of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with that elder, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation.'

"In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, are the four great references for you to preserve."

:buddha2:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14622
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Contact, Suffering, Cessation Qs?

Postby Pannapetar » Tue May 18, 2010 10:58 am

Retro, I had read it the first time, but I am wondering how this ties in with cessation of sense impression. Where does it say in the text that sense impression (phassa) has ceased?

It would appear that the cessation of sense impression (in the sense of nerve impulses reaching the brain) is neurologically impossible, unless you actually cut nerves. Wouldn't you agree?

Cheers, Thomas
User avatar
Pannapetar
 
Posts: 327
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:05 am
Location: Chiang Mai, Thailand

Re: Contact, Suffering, Cessation Qs?

Postby mikenz66 » Tue May 18, 2010 11:00 am

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,

I appreciate the suggestion, but I think the original statement was rather clear. If people don't understand the distinction, they're free to ask.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Yes, it's technically correct, but to me:
retrofuturist wrote:According to the Mahavihara sect.

To me implies that you think that the Theravada were misguided.

Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10128
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Contact, Suffering, Cessation Qs?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue May 18, 2010 11:07 am

Greetings Pannapetar,

Pannapetar wrote:It would appear that the cessation of sense impression (in the sense of nerve impulses reaching the brain)

It would appear that you define the Buddha's words by your own definitions and then wonder why you cannot make sense of what is said.

Pannapetar wrote:...is neurologically impossible, unless you actually cut nerves. Wouldn't you agree?

I don't really consider it relevant. However, there were religionists of the time who felt they could purify themselves through removing sensory inputs altogether
Image
The Buddha did not agree with their assessment.

I would provide the sutta reference, but I can't think of a keyword by which to search it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14622
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Contact, Suffering, Cessation Qs?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue May 18, 2010 11:11 am

Greetings Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:To me implies that you think that the Theravada were misguided.

It implies they are a sect of Theravada... thus a subset and not to be equated in a 1:1 fashion with "Theravada" as doing so would alienate all Theravadins (monks and layfolk alike) who do not adhere to the doctrinal interpretations of the ancient Sri Lankans. Being the General Theravada discussion area, it is important to distinguish between General Theravada (A) and the Mahavihara subset (B).

Image

As to what may be misguided, DN16 gives directions from the Buddha on how one might go about assessing that sort of thing for themselves.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14622
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Contact, Suffering, Cessation Qs?

Postby Shonin » Tue May 18, 2010 11:24 am

I think I saw something recently that implied that contact was dependent on 'the conceit 'I am'' (not sure where this is represented in the chain though). I might be misremembering but I'll try to find it.
Shonin
 
Posts: 583
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:11 am

Re: Contact, Suffering, Cessation Qs?

Postby Pannapetar » Tue May 18, 2010 11:31 am

retrofuturist wrote:It would appear that you define the Buddha's words by your own definitions and then wonder why you cannot make sense of what is said.


The words "sense impression" is not my own definition. It is a standard translation of phassa. Mostly, the word phassa is just translated as "contact" (eye-..., ear-..., nose-..., etc.), or "touch". If you think that something else is meant here, could you perhaps explain it instead of referencing enigmatic passages of the canon? The three monkeys don't really help clarifying that point.

You are saying that arahats have realised phassnirodha. And since you love to quote sutta, perhaps you could come up with a more pertinent sample? If -in your opinion- phassanirodha has nothing to do with sense impression then I am really looking forward to learning something new.

Cheers, Thomas
User avatar
Pannapetar
 
Posts: 327
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:05 am
Location: Chiang Mai, Thailand

Re: Contact, Suffering, Cessation Qs?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue May 18, 2010 11:45 am

Greetings Pannapetar,

Pannapetar wrote:The words "sense impression" is not my own definition.


I was referring to the bracketed part of this... "sense impression (in the sense of nerve impulses reaching the brain)". The Buddha did not say that.

Pannapetar wrote:Mostly, the word phassa is just translated as "contact" (eye-..., ear-..., nose-..., etc.), or "touch". If you think that something else is meant here, could you perhaps explain it instead of referencing enigmatic passages of the canon?

As far as one word translations go, they're fine. But what touches what? What makes contact with what?

Let us see if this is too enigmatic...

DN 15: Mahanidana Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

'From name-&-form as a requisite condition comes contact. Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes contact. If the qualities, traits, themes, & indicators by which there is a description of name-group (mental activity) were all absent, would designation-contact with regard to the form-group (the physical properties) be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"If the permutations, signs, themes, and indicators by which there is a description of form-group were all absent, would resistance-contact with regard to the name-group be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"If the permutations, signs, themes, and indicators by which there is a description of name-group and form-group were all absent, would designation-contact or resistance-contact be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for contact, i.e., name-and-form.


The answer to your little conundrum may lie in the difference between designation-contact (adhivacanasamphassa) and resistance-contact (patighasamphassa)

You are saying that arahats have realised phassnirodha.

Yes.

And since you love to quote sutta, perhaps you could come up with a more pertinent sample?

I've already shown sutta examples... I suggest the onus is now on you to find something to support your POV. Shall you bring more than speculation to the table? We shall see...

If -in your opinion- phassanirodha has nothing to do with sense impression then I am really looking forward to learning something new.

I didn't say nothing to do with it. Re-read the extract from the Mahanidana Sutta above.

Udana 12 wrote:Contacts contact
dependent on ground --
How should contacts contact
a groundless one?

(Phusanti phassā, upadhim paticca, Nirūpadhim kena, phuseyyum phassā)

Is the groundless one dead?

:shock:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14622
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Contact, Suffering, Cessation Qs?

Postby Pannapetar » Tue May 18, 2010 12:03 pm

retrofuturist wrote:I was referring to the bracketed part of this... "sense impression (in the sense of nerve impulses reaching the brain)". The Buddha did not say that.


Of course the Buddha did not say that, because the Buddha lived in a pre-scientific age, where neuro-science was unknown. But what else could it possibly mean? Are you implying some supernatural component?

retrofuturist wrote:The answer to your little conundrum may lie in the difference between designation-contact (adhivacanasamphassa) and resistance-contact (patighasamphassa).


To be frank: it doesn't. This dichotomy simply connects phassa with the two components of its antecedent namarupa, namely nama and rupa. It implies a dual nature of phassa, but how do you get from there to your conclusion?

retrofuturist wrote:I suggest the onus is now on you to find something to support your POV. Shall you bring more than speculation to the table? We shall see...


I have no other POV than that of sense impression having a neurological basis and that POV is well supported by science. It is definitely not speculation. Aren't you the one engaging in speculation about arahants?

Cheers, Thomas
User avatar
Pannapetar
 
Posts: 327
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:05 am
Location: Chiang Mai, Thailand

Re: Contact, Suffering, Cessation Qs?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue May 18, 2010 12:25 pm

Greetings Pannapetar,

Perhaps you might take your theories to a Physiology forum, in search of enlightenment.

Once again, we have reached a point in the conversation where it is suitably demonstrated that our views are so incompatible that this conversation serves no further purpose. No offense intended, but speculation doesn't interest me.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14622
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Contact, Suffering, Cessation Qs?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue May 18, 2010 12:26 pm

Greetings,

An extract from Our underlying tendencies by Kingsley Heendeniya
http://www.dailynews.lk/2004/08/25/fea09.html

The Buddha realised for himself that the basic determinant of dukkha is craving which manifests in vinnana in a myriad of ways, from information streaming in from the five senses and the mind, when they make contact [phassa] with a supposed self that living beings possess. This self reacts and determine the determinants of this contact. Contacted one feels, contacted one perceives, contacted one intends.

It is this self that monitors and interprets and is affected by the multitudinous contacts to produce experience and delight in contacts, to cause sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair, when in truth, there is no such entity as self.

So the Buddha says, This world, tormented by contact, calls a disease [this body and mind] self, for however it [the body and mind] is understood it [the body and mind] is ever other than self. [Paraphrased]. The world is the same as vinnana because there can be no experience of the world without it.

When therefore, contacts torment us, it must be distressful because vinnana causes it to be thus.

Whatever is experienced by contact, everything is therefore felt. It follows that since contacts torment, then whatever is felt is dukkha.

The Buddha now makes a leap in thinking and understanding of this fundamental structure of experience to state that delight is the root of everything and attention [manasikara] provides their being [of delight].

That is say, in other words, when no attention is given to contacts, there is no arising of dukkha. In Dhamma terms, this is the state of phassanirodha of the arahat.

The arahat is pancakkhanda. There is no upadana. Nevertheless, there is contact in the arahat because the sense faculties and mind are intact. But the significant achievement of the arahat is that all notions of self are extirpated.

There are intentions because the paticcasamuppada principle, the fundamental structure of arising and ceasing is intact. But his intentions or determinants do not affect or arise from contact with a self. There is no arising of action. It is the end.

How can contacts contact a groundless one? asks the Buddha. The ground is the false notion of self that the arahat has abandoned.

It is this false notion in vinnana that assail everyone not an arahat. It is the source of all the underlying tendencies in vinnana that pervasively prevent experiencing things as they actually are [yathabhuta nana dassana].

It is the source of lobha and moha. It is this belief in a non-existing self that is the mainspring of kama-raga [sensuous desire], of patigha [ill will], of ditthi [wrong view], of vicikiccha [skeptical doubt], of mana [conceit], of bhavaraga [craving for being], and collectively, of avijja [ignorance].

These seven things [anusaya] underlie vinnana of the asatuva puthajjana and trap him by their defiling affect. Attenuating, cleansing, removing and expunging them from vinnana are the tasks of practicing the Dhamma.


Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14622
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Contact, Suffering, Cessation Qs?

Postby Dmytro » Tue May 18, 2010 1:31 pm

Hi Adosa,

adosa wrote:Thanks Dmtryo.... but from contact suffering arises. Without contact, no suffering. Contact is the necessary condition for suffering to arises. I see where you're coming from but the statement is still true.

"The Blessed One, my friend, has said that pleasure & pain are dependently co-arisen. Dependent on what? Dependent on contact. One speaking in this way would be speaking in line with what the Blessed One has said, would not be misrepresenting the Blessed One with what is unfactual, and would be answering in line with the Dhamma so that no one whose thinking is in line with the Dhamma would have grounds for criticism.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


"Suffering arises from contact" and "suffering arises with a contact as a necessary condition" are two very different statements.

The sutta you quote tell about how the feelings of pleasure and suffering arise dependent on contact.

Feelings of suffering (dukkha-vedana) and dukkha as a link in Conditioned Arising are two very different things.

Metta, Dmytro
Last edited by Dmytro on Tue May 18, 2010 2:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Dmytro
 
Posts: 1161
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

Re: Contact, Suffering, Cessation Qs?

Postby Dmytro » Tue May 18, 2010 1:40 pm

Hi Thomas,

Pannapetar wrote:
Dmytro wrote:Avijja" in the Conditioned Arising (paticca-samuppada) refers to the previous lifetime.

PeterB wrote:Or not. See Buddhadasa.


Question is: is this really such an important distinction? I can see how it can be interpreted both ways. Perhaps the "lifetime" perspective is just one frame of reference, as valid as any other frame of reference.


It is important. Otherwise you can, without directly dealing with craving, as recommended in Parileyyaka sutta, get involved into fashionable theories of modern Westernized Buddhism.

You can read carefully the Mahanidana sutta yourself and see whether Conditioned Arising is about three lifetimes.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Metta, Dmytro
User avatar
Dmytro
 
Posts: 1161
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

Re: Contact, Suffering, Cessation Qs?

Postby Pannapetar » Tue May 18, 2010 2:01 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Perhaps you might take your theories to a Physiology forum, in search of enlightenment.


Been there done that. :tongue: This was probably intended as sarcasm, but it is actually important for me to be able to understand the dhamma in contemporary terms.

retrofuturist wrote:Once again, we have reached a point in the conversation where it is suitably demonstrated that our views are so incompatible that this conversation serves no further purpose.


Or perhaps we have again reached a point where you run out of arguments? :broke: Never mind.

Interestingly, you quoted a text that contains a passage which refutes your interpretation:

Kingsley Heendeniya wrote:That is say, in other words, when no attention is given to contacts, there is no arising of dukkha. In Dhamma terms, this is the state of phassanirodha of the arahat.


Aha! Kingsley doesn't say that the arahat exhibits no contact (phassa), but that the arahat "does not pay attention" to them. That appears to be something that happens after contact, post-phassa so to speak, doesn't it?

Dmytro wrote:It is important. Otherwise you can, without directly dealing with craving, as recommended in Parileyyaka sutta, get involved into fashionable theories of modern Westernized Buddhism.


Believe me Dmytro, I am far from that. Both perspectives make sense, meaning you can construct examples of dependent origination on a small scale (such as the lifecycle of a spoken thought/sentence) as well as on a large scale, for example a scale that involves multiple lifetimes of a person.

Cheers, Thomas
User avatar
Pannapetar
 
Posts: 327
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:05 am
Location: Chiang Mai, Thailand

Re: Contact, Suffering, Cessation Qs?

Postby PeterB » Tue May 18, 2010 2:19 pm

Dmytro wrote:Hi Thomas,

Pannapetar wrote:
Dmytro wrote:Avijja" in the Conditioned Arising (paticca-samuppada) refers to the previous lifetime.

PeterB wrote:Or not. See Buddhadasa.


Question is: is this really such an important distinction? I can see how it can be interpreted both ways. Perhaps the "lifetime" perspective is just one frame of reference, as valid as any other frame of reference.


It is important. Otherwise you can, without directly dealing with craving, as recommended in Parileyyaka sutta, get involved into fashionable theories of modern Westernized Buddhism.

You can read carefully the Mahanidana sutta yourself and see whether Conditioned Arising is about three lifetimes.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Metta, Dmytro

Personally Dmytro I see no connection between the teaching of Ajahn Buddhadasa and modern Westernised Buddhism .
I think his view arises from a hard won position and much struggle with the original texts.
You may not agree with his position but I dont think it can be dismissed as mere fashion.
At one time I held a literal view of Rebirth. As a student of the Vajrayana I even accepted the whole tulku belief system.
Now I am less sure and less bothered about it all.
I am quite content to follow my practice and let what ever the truth is reveal itself in due time.
My practice is not predicated on beliefs, but on day to day attempted realisation of the Buddhas teaching.
PeterB
 
Posts: 3904
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

PreviousNext

Return to General Theravāda discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: cooran, SarathW and 6 guests