Theravada Process of Brahmacariya

[convivium]

do wet dreams count as brahmacariya?

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

do wet dreams count as brahmacariya?

There is no violation of patimokkha precepts in this, so yes.

Metta,
Retro.

[convivium]

what about half asleep? lucid dream? it's interesting because the intention is still there, but the superego is clouded. it's symptomatic of suppression. there's a stereotype that this happened (or happens) often with therevada monks. i wouldn't imagine that could be true though.

[PeterB]

Can I ask you something Convivium..and I am not casting aspertions or being sarcastic here. Do you have an interest in any other aspect of the Buddhadhamma apart from your interest in its relationship to sexuality ?
You see Buddhadhamma comes as a package . It addresses many areas of functioning and does not concentrate on one to the exclusion of others.
I would go so far as to say that if our interest in Dhamma revolves around any single issue..like sexuality or like diet for example we will stand in danger of missing most of what it is saying.

[convivium]

this is particularly on my mind, because i'm considering ordination, and i've never been chaste for more than 6 months...

[jcsuperstar]

you had sex when you were 6 months old?

[convivium]

thankfully i was never molested......

[PeterB]

There are always going to be problems Convivium when we take one aspect of our totality out of context.

[tiltbillings]

So the main methods dealing with sexual suppression and desire are so far...
contemplation of loathsomeness/charnel ground
jhana
sense restraint
hard work/busy schedule/little sleep
one meal a day
not seeing women
the rest of the eightfold path...
Do many Therevada monastics & initiates have issues of sexual suppression? Are these approaches usually sufficient to renounce all forms of sexuality?

The best advice - the only really meaningful advice - comes at the end of this humorous exchange between the Ananda and the Buddha:

Then the Venerable Ananda said to the Blessed One: "How, Lord, should we conduct ourselves towards women?"

"Do not see them, Ananda."

"But, Lord, if we do see them?"

"Do not speak, Ananda."

"But, Lord, if they should speak to us?"

"Then, Ananda, you should establish mindfulness." - DN 16.

Sexual feelings are not going to go away as long as you have a body. Best learn to be mindful.

[Goofaholix]

this is particularly on my mind, because i'm considering ordination, and i've never been chaste for more than 6 months...

If you are saying you've gone for 6 months without masterbating or having intercourse as an adult male then I think you've achieved more than most of us could lay claim to and will find being a monk a breeze.

Seriously if you ordain somewhere with a good standard of vinaya I think you'll find that you'll take the rules seriously enough that you won't even consider breaking a major rule like this.

The practice is about realising the empty nature of these kinds of cravings and that they don't control you.

[convivium]

Sexual feelings are not going to go away as long as you have a body. Best learn to be mindful.

of course ananda wasn't an anagami at that point

There are always going to be problems Convivium when we take one aspect of our totality out of context.

true. it's worth discussing of course because when we abandon all sexuality through patimokkha restraint some serious sankaras, if not the most serious, come to threaten psychological equilibrium (discernment, etc.)

("Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions....)

"And what is the right action that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? Abstaining from killing, from taking what is not given, & from illicit sex. This is the right action that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions.

"And what is the right action that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The abstaining, desisting, abstinence, avoidance of the three forms of bodily misconduct of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right action that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

"One tries to abandon wrong action & to enter into right action: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong action & to enter & remain in right action: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right action. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

[convivium]

If you are saying you've gone for 6 months without masterbating or having intercourse as an adult male then I think you've achieved more than most of us could lay claim to and will find being a monk a breeze.

thanks for your confidence. a lifetime commitment has to come after at least a year as naga and then a novice period, which will make this more clear.

Seriously if you ordain somewhere with a good standard of vinaya I think you'll find that you'll take the rules seriously enough that you won't even consider breaking a major rule like this.

YAY! i've broken vows in the past, but this has serious punishments so yr probably right. and other people supporting and trusting in us, and so on.

The practice is about realising the empty nature of these kinds of cravings and that they don't control you.

So are meteor showers and tidal waves; all elements of nature... that's why these practices, and also understanding anicca, anatta dukkha, and so on, are here before gradual eradication, & insight, in paths beyond stream entry.

[jcsuperstar]

thankfully i was never molested......

then youve gone longer than 6 months, and i dont know about you, but i'd like to think that as an adult, especially one who thinks they should ordain, i have more self control than a child.

[convivium]

the point is kids can't have sex at six months unless they're molested. since i've been able to i have. like most kids i grew up with in america.
maybe what your really trying to say jc, is "be you as children." we must embrace the positivity in life with a childlike enthusiasm. sexuality isn't necessarily a corruption, but the way we learned it. but it's not needed for arahatship...

[convivium]

http://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/090607%20Lust.mp3 "you need another form of pleasure... primarily right mindfulness right concentration" he's an amazing teacher.
---
this happened a while ago at a goenka center and i took it really seriously: how about masterbating half asleep? not fully conscious for the super ego to operate but also being conscious of that choice? it's surprising that nocturnal emissions aren't against vinaya in some way, our vigilance is just more clouded.

[jcsuperstar]

the point is kids can't have sex at six months unless they're molested. since i've been able to i have. like most kids i grew up with in america.
maybe what your really trying to say jc, is "be you as children." we must embrace the positivity in life with a childlike enthusiasm. sexuality isn't necessarily a corruption, but the way we learned it. but it's not needed for arahatship...

no what i'm trying to point you to is there was a period of your life where you could easily go without sex and that was a period of your life where you supposedly should have had less self control so if it wasn't a problem then why is it now? really unless you have a mental issue where you need clinical help with an addiction to sex then sex really isnt that big of an issue. wanting sex is a completely different animal to thinking one needs sex. most people have a biological want to have sex beginning at adolescence and even these hormone ravaged 13 and 14 year olds can say no and even without the advantages of a fully formed frontal lobe make seemingly rational decisions in most instances about sex, then why should those further along the developmental chain have such a problem? the obsession people have with sex either the repulsion or compulsion to it is really no different than the compulsion to over eat or starve one self etc yet you dont get these same sorts of questions about food " what did the Buddha say we should do to keep from eating nonstop?" it's only with sex.

why do you want to give up sex? is it just to be a monk? or do you see that there is something inherent in this craving for sex that isnt bringing you happiness and if so is it the sex that doesnt bring it or is it that no matter what the craving doesnt end? and if it is that it is just that the sex is bad, well have better sex but if it is that the craving doesnt end and that leads to suffering what is the point in just searching out other ways to fill the craving? you know you'll only be able to do it for so long then the craving will come back, every junkie knows he'll need another fix, the only way to end the suffering is to end the wanting and craving not find another way to fill it. simple. this is why the 8foldpath starts with sammā-diṭṭhi (right view/understanding)

[convivium]

what is the point in just searching out other ways to fill the craving

do re mi fa so la ti do. it's like trading candy for gold. listen to that talk i posted if you'd care to. right concentration, right mindfulness become our substitutions, and then we can establish higher and higher gnosis of right view. in order to revisit sex, beyond the extent to what i've experienced, and found dissatisfaction in, and not get entangled, then it is necessary to be brahmacariya very firmly anyway, and have sex for other reasons than pleasure i.e. tantrayana. but for this life, not to suppose or concern with anything beyond, i need to stay celibate and pursue arahatship. i don't have the paramis to not get entangled in the desire and the intention to use tantrayana as a dangerous means to create the vajrasatva and other bodies to help save all beings and really light up samsara before parinibbana which is it's function and the only real function ultimately in line with buddhism. to cop out to kama-tanha is something my heart insistently won't let me do. that's the only way i can live without regret and affectation. my dignity, etc pretty much lies in following the path to this extent. when i don't keep this foundation it's not me doing it and it kills a part of me and opens me up to all kinds of mara. everyone's sankaras are different but listening inside, and listening to the teachings of all the masters this is clear enough. not to say that we can't advance on the path without brahmacariya, but ultimately the importance of overcoming sexual desire needs to be comprehended to that extent if not beyond...

[jcsuperstar]

[PeterB]

Convivium I think you are self obsessed. I think your sexuality preoccupations are just a manifestation of that.
I would bet that there are lots of disadvanted people in your neighbourhood who could use whatever excess energy you have to help them.

[convivium]

Mediocrity must be overcome with what may appear to be fanaticism. Going deeper into whatever you're doing with a strong sense of real connection may appear to be fanaticism.